Well that escalated quickly… (Surrey Police get an online hoofing content)

Copied and pasted my comments from this in the mag:

“Unfortunately, birds, animals, and other flora and fauna don’t just exist in SSSIs and nature reserves. There is a good reason why most developments have to undertake an extensive survey by professionals and experts before being allowed to go ahead. The aborted Radmires trails are a good example – nesting nightjars (secretive rare birds) would have been unlikely to be noticed by stealth trail builders. And as the chap in the article himself notes, it’s social media and the associated numbers of riders that exacerbate the issue greatly – a couple of kids messing about in their local woods really isn’t much of an issue and has been going on forever, but Audis full of Strava-wielding stormtroopers on 160mm bikes can have a very negative impact, both on the environment, the wider locale and the reputation of mountain bikers as a whole.”

This particular area just looks like an area of scrubby clearfell, with no indication of its biodiversity. I’m sure I wouldn’t have given it a second thought if trail building had been allowed here. UK and worldwide wildlife is in catastrophic decline, pushing any of it any closer to the brink for the sake of a few folk playing on bikes seems to be the wrong priority to me.

nick – Treating as you find is the exact opposite of tarring everyone with the same brush.

And if lots of different people behave in a similar way to you, maybe think about other common factors?

Owning a cat is more damaging to birdlife than kids building trails.

Very sad that England probably won’t see access like Scotland in my lifetime, if ever. Far too many people obsessed with partitioning off bits of land for themselves and keeping others out. Never been to any other country where there are so many fences, walls, hedges and rules on access.

Even in ‘public’ parts of the countryside you know you have arrived when you see the unsightly mass of signs stating what you AREN’T allowed to do there.

Well that escalated quickly… (Surrey Police get an online hoofing content)

Misses one crucial point. Even if 80% of the general population is pro-hoofing, the other 20% won’t be. And that 20% will contain nearly all the chaps who get to decide which retired coppers get into the golf club.

Numbers have never been proportionate to influence in this country.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/17/who-owns-england-thousand-secret-landowners-author

Not saying that digging those jumps is sensible. More that it is an inevitable outcome of us all being squeezed into a small portion of the land. Another is the ridiculous price of housing!

Personally – We need to be encouraging 1. Increased access / National ownership 2. Rewilding (to mitigate Climate Control / biodiversity) 3. Increased recreational facilities (for the benefits we all know and love)

I think that we are going to see more pressure to change but with the current power structure…. who knows!

I think that we are going to see more pressure to change but with the current power structure…. who knows!

The trouble with applying the wrong kind of pressure – like building potentially dangerous illegal trail features – is that you are far less likely to encourage change to allow building of secure, safer, properly managed trail centres.

As ever, finding the sensible middle ground is difficult, and made harder by both sides ignoring Rule 1

While that sounds like the sensible action, it never works. Rights have been won by protest and action, not by asking politely for the minority with power to release their grip on it. From suffrage to the mass trespass and onto the 60’s rights movement sitting at home waiting politely for change just hasn’t worked.

All of this is completely irrelevant because you haven’t told us what Sandy thinks about people who walk through his scrubby few acres.

But completely relevant as to if he should be swept up and tarred with the ‘gentry’ brush because he owns a few acres which was the accusation.

What would he think. Don’t know to be certain. Given his affability and the fact I often see him with his dogs ambling about other folks land (this is Scotland after all) I can’t imagine he’d have issue. He’d be a hypocrite if he did. He has a fearsome reputation…..for getting you drunk if you stand still long enough to have a glass put in your hand. It would keep most of the riff raff away if nothing else!

im sorry but this;

There is a good reason why most developments have to undertake an extensive survey by professionals and experts before being allowed to go ahead

is about as relevant as me drinking a cup of tea to the thread. Developers are tearing up trees, disturbing huge amounts of soil etc – even 100 bikers every couple of days is nowhere near this level disturbance to wildlife.

If there are going to be arguments of why you cant do something, make it credible and relevant to waht’s going on, otherwise people just say “what evs” and carry on un-educated. As i sated earlier, the way land is now managed around the surrey hills, the argument of “protecting the wildlife” no longer holds up – 30tonne monster forestry equipment everywhere makes a mockery of it – it never used to be this extensive and most people half agreed – not anymore..

MSP
Free Member
Owning a cat is more damaging to birdlife than kids building trails.

So your saying trailbuilding/riding causes no damage? Afterall RSPB says domesticated cat’s make no difference to birdlife “No scientific evidence: Despite the large numbers of birds killed by cats in gardens, there is no clear scientific evidence that such mortality is causing bird populations to decline.”
Cat ain’t killers

“If there are going to be arguments of why you cant do something, make it credible and relevant to waht’s going on, otherwise people just say “what evs” and carry on un-educated.”

Erm, how much more credible and relevant than the well documented, mountain bike-specific example I gave would you like?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_trespass_of_Kinder_Scout

Really worth knowing about kinder scout trespass, nothing changes by being quiet. I think the affects of covid might be the catalyst to get land access changed

Access rights does not mean the right to dig trails – stop conflating the two!

Looks like Horncliffe woods has been busted.

Two sets of woods seperated by an access road to a former landfill site at the top of the woods. One set of woods has had ‘trails’ since MTB’s first became popular in the UK.

The 2nd woods haven’t till recently.

The problem is weed smoking **** have chopped down loads of mature tree to make a ‘hut’ in the 2nd woods which has since collapsed whilst their scroaty helmet less mates slither about DHilling.

I spotted the hut when out with the dog and no doubt other people have. I doubt scroatybollocks and his mates are going to contact the LA.

Access rights does not mean the right to dig trails – stop conflating the two!

This.

And for those saying access rights only come through protest, read this.

I think the affects of covid might be the catalyst to get land access changed

I would say the exact opposite given who we currently have in charge.

They’re going to keep the unrealistic property boom going by allowing building on previously untouchable green belt and they’re going to want big houses with big ‘grounds’ to attract in dodgy Russian oligarchs inward investment from external sources.

So your saying trailbuilding/riding causes no damage? Afterall RSPB says domesticated cat’s make no difference to birdlife “No scientific evidence: Despite the large numbers of birds killed by cats in gardens, there is no clear scientific evidence that such mortality is causing bird populations to decline.”

Are you saying that despite the large number of birds killed by cats, a few spotty teenager building trails makes an impact and they should be stopped to protect the birds? If the bird population can withstand the devastation of cats and industrialised modern farming and forestry then the impact of these trail builders are a grain of sand on a thousand mile beach.

Developers are tearing up trees, disturbing huge amounts of soil etc – even 100 bikers every couple of days is nowhere near this level disturbance to wildlife.

HS2 anyone?
The devastation that’s causing is indescribable.

Really worth knowing about kinder scout trespass, nothing changes by being quiet. I think the affects of covid might be the catalyst to get land access changed

I’m more than happy to take part in an MTB trespass to improve English access rights.

But that’s got nothing to do with building trail features

HS2 anyone?
The devastation that’s causing is indescribable.

Not to Andrew Bridgen’s bank balance it isn’t….

Take nothing but photos. leave nothing but footprints

Worst advice ever. Went for a bike ride earlier, then realised I’d have to carry the bike if I was to only leave footprints. Big issue there was that I was already carrying three **** photo albums in a rucksack.

I normally think you talk sense TJ, but this time you can stick it!

Was just going to check how many comments Waverley Beat’s PR disaster post has now, but it appears to have been taken down.

splitting hairs. Landowners are landowners, whether they’re bare-arsed hill-famers scratching a living or Red Be-trousered ex of Eton (or the other place). They lump everyone who strays onto their property into the same category, so I shall return the favour…

The owner of Glen Feshie estate, apart from spending large amounts of his own cash culling deer to allow the pine forest, Juniper, and birch to regenerate spent a serious amount of money rebuilding and extending the bothy in the glen which is open to everyone.

https://cameronmcneish.wordpress.com/2014/02/23/glen-feshie-a-new-beginning/

“The Glen Feshie estate wants to add an external porch and stairs to an upper sleeping floor at the popular bothy, plus new windows, doors, bult-in bunks and wood burning stoves in the existing downstairs rooms. A wood store will be built outside, kept stocked by the estate to encourage visitors not to cut firewood in the old scots pines that surround the bothy.”

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/2015/11/glen_feshie_bothy_set_for_revamp-70085

I’ve been in since the renovatio. A Rolls Royce of bothies. Two great woodburners and a pile of wood outside supplied by the estate.

The Ben Alder estate has always been welcoming to visitors as well. There are plenty other examples.

As it happens my dad who was active in the climbing scene in Scotland in the 1940s and 50s said the only time they ever got hassled for camping it was on govt owned land – the Forestry commission.

LOlz @ funkmasterp! Ok tyre tracks you pedant! A tyre has a footprint anyway :-)

Waverley Beat post a partial retraction/apology for the tone of the post yesterday afternoon and then removed it yesterday evening.

As if it never existed…

Which I think i have a problem with. I’d like their mistake to be on public record.

Was just wondering how places like Rogate start out
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/hampshire/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9051000/9051281.stm

“In the past enthusiasts built unauthorised courses in forests, which were unsafe and had to be dismantled.”

Exactly I would have more respect for them if they had left the original post on the page and also the subsequent retraction. Just shows a lack of confidence in their own initial convictions

Maybe they didn’t pay enough attention in Social Media training class.

Was just wondering how places like Rogate start out

this thread seems as good a place as any to recommend this conversation with Sam Bowell of Rogate:
https://www.hktproducts.co.uk/blogs/podcast/106-sam-bowell

All about trail conflict/ personal responsibility of riders, builders, landowners on sanctioned and unsanctioned land. Should be required listening for all mountain bikers! Or a reader’s digest version, maybe!

Are you saying that despite the large number of birds killed by cats, a few spotty teenager building trails makes an impact and they should be stopped to protect the birds? If the bird population can withstand the devastation of cats and industrialised modern farming and forestry then the impact of these trail builders are a grain of sand on a thousand mile beach.

The flaw here is that you’re lumping them all together as ‘birds’. I don’t know about you but I get sparrows and pigeons in my back yard, endangered species not so much.

Huh, apparently 622 different species of birds in the U.K.

Really worth knowing about kinder scout trespass, nothing changes by being quiet. I think the affects of covid might be the catalyst to get land access changed

Thoughts on the mass trespass

@nedrapier

this thread seems as good a place as any to recommend this conversation with Sam Bowell of Rogate:
https://www.hktproducts.co.uk/blogs/podcast/106-sam-bowell

All about trail conflict/ personal responsibility of riders, builders, landowners on sanctioned and unsanctioned land. Should be required listening for all mountain bikers! Or a reader’s digest version, maybe!

Excellent tip-off – very good and well worth listening.

Can anyone tell me if we have to break out the flaming torches and pitchforks to storm the properties of McMoonter and Welshfarmer because they’ve always seemed OK to me yet apparently all of them land folk are barstewards.

My family has an ancestral farm Its a huge 60 acres. Gerrof my land

Can anyone tell me if we have to break out the flaming torches and pitchforks to storm the properties of McMoonter and Welshfarmer because they’ve always seemed OK to me yet apparently all of them land folk are barstewards.

Best have a word with my old employer – over 500 acres of Scotland owned.
They dare to improve paths, build MTB trails and welcome public across 472 acres without restrictions. They even allowed an up an coming rider to build huuuge jumps in one area, now we watch him at world cup dh and Enduro.
The swines.

They dare to improve paths, build MTB trails and welcome public across 472 acres without restrictions. They even allowed an up an coming rider to build huuuge jumps in one area, now we watch him at world cup dh and Enduro.

Makes you wonder what they’re hiding.

I don’t know about you but I get sparrows and pigeons in my back yard, endangered species not so much.

Sadly you are wrong about that.
House and tree sparrows are both red listed as their numbers have dropped dramatically.
Dunnocks have had a drop but not to the same extent.
Which is the problem with habitat modification. A bird which seems common might be dependant on a small area of land.

Getting back on subject. The amount of trail building does seem to have massively increased along with the work done. I suspect down to people seeing trail centres and wanting to replicate them locally. I can see why landowners wouldnt be overly chuffed about extensive works on their land. I guess it depends on how well hidden it was and what damage it does to the area.