Ukraine

Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue”s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.

The current Polish government overseeing racist policies, especially as regards their border controls? There’s a surprise. But still, those fleeing Ukraine and facing problems at the Polish border would be welcome into the UK with open arms, at speed, with limited paper work… yeah? Right.

Certainly saw how disgusting it was. But in the context if a debate about the war as a whole, I prioritised my anger and frustration.

I think most people saw it but I think most people, like me, struggled to figure out how it fits into current situation. This kind of racism obviously such a huge issue for the world and humanity in general but somehow in this case it feels less significant. Which obviously makes you feel guilty and it just becomes easier to talk about the difference between a hitile and a missile.

Despite his insistence, I don’t think grum is actually the only one who has found themself questioning their own reactions and their own prejudices throughout the last week.

So RT was obvious but it's going to be verrrrry interesting to see which groups have sudden funding crises soon.

— James Palmer (@BeijingPalmer) March 3, 2022

Funny how no one saw the ironing in people being racially segregated into different queue”s at the borders of Ukraine and the EU.

Yup, and it just seems to have been accepted as ‘one of those things’.

1. Reported on BBC R4 as an awful thing, (including Hungary’s difft approach). Who’s saying it’s not? Everyone??

2. “Ironing” stopped being funny after about the second time it was used, something everyone knows.

3. There’s a planet threatening difference in magnitude between a nato/Russia conflict Vs India/Pakistan.

4. I’m not going to catch up with the thread, so can someone tell me what point inkster and/or grum are trying to make?

How do we think those images at the border can be played out in then Russian media?

If you”re not sure, then let me tell you, the same way they are playing out in Africa and the ME. Our battle for hearts and minds only seems to extend to Europeans?

Rationalising the issue away in deference to immediate priorities is a huge mistake, Ukraine should have been called out for it Instantly and Zelinsky should have broadcast a public apology. If not because it would be the right thing to do morally, do it because it is the right thing to do strategically.

It’s not a good way to garner global support, sentimentally or politically. The Western media ‘campaign’ has been getting it wrong the last few days. We mistake global concern for what is in essence a Eurocentric problem. A bit like the yanks with their baseball ‘World Series”.

Not sure what exactly the Ukraine government got wrong here, they weren’t the ones stopping refugees crossing their borders (just as we are) were they?

Rationalising the issue away in deference to immediate priorities is a huge mistake, Ukraine should have been called out for it Instantly and Zelinsky should have broadcast a public apology. If not because it would be the right thing to do morally, do it because it is the right thing to do strategically.

I agree. We probably should have discussed it more at the time on this thread. Zelinsky should have said something (assuming he was/is aware of it, I’d imagine he’s quite busy).

However, from the way it’s being used as a stick to beat other people on this thread, I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.

If you want to discuss it I’m for it but is there really that much to discuss? It was shocking and horrifying and shouldn’t have happened. Zelinsky should have been made aware of it and he should have said something.

I don’t think many people are going to argue against that. Like I said earlier, if it happened in London or Glasgow I’d know what to do. Here, I have no clue.

Do you have any suggestions?

“But still, those fleeing Ukraine and facing problems at the Polish border would be welcome into the UK with open arms, at speed, with limited paper work… yeah? Right.”

That’s a big leap. I flagged up some incidents of racial segregation on the Continent, that’s all.

I thought the imagery a little more profound than it was being given credit for and maybe a bit more consequential for a global {or non white] audience than was being considered on here.

However, from the way it’s being used as a stick to beat other people on this thread, I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.

agree.

if anyone’s interested, here’s an account (twitter thread) by a Black person of the difficulties they faced at the Ukrainian border…. and here’s how they were treated at the UK border.

“Not sure what exactly the Ukraine government got wrong here, they weren’t the ones stopping refugees crossing their borders (just as we are) were they?

Yes they were.

stumpy – using the term ‘big hitters’ gives the wrong impression; argumentative, opinionated and voluble with an overly large opinion of self-worth would be more appropriate.
Don’t forget the aphorism – empty vessels make most noise.

if anyone’s interested

Thanks @doris5000, a depressing read.

“1. Reported on BBC R4 as an awful thing, (including Hungary’s difft approach). Who’s saying it’s not? Everyone??”

No one on here, not for 24 hours after it happened at least.

“I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.”

That’s either exactly what I am doing or I actually have a concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.

Russia is global ask the Japanese how they felt about Russian helicopters invading the Japanese air space.
Russia (Putin) is not a European issue it’s global Alaska to Poland is some ground to cover.

Cluster bombs almost certainly have been used what’s next chorine gas?
Large scale white phosphorus (not flash).
The treatment of refugees from Africa that we saw on the news has I believe been questioned by the UN and rightly so.
We are now looking at 10000 Russian troops losing there life for a war only a 3 or 4 people in power want and that is Putin and his weak handed cronies.
Ukraine don’t want this the Russian army don’t want the fight the EU block have nothing to gain here.
Just think if we where in Russia now calling it a war could be punished by prison.

What, you’re saying India-Kashmir doesn’t have the potential to result in nuclear war? Really?

No, I don’t think it does. The Indians and Pakistanis have been lobbing rounds at each other for decades now without getting anywhere near reaching for the launch codes

I sense no-one really knows what the true ultimate desired outcome for this actually is. Regardless, for a notable and significant number of humans it is completely wrong and unnecessary.

However – and no idea if it would make much difference TBH – some softening of language (particularly from some of our own politicians seeking a sound-bite whilst frequently reading from a piece of paper) using “We suggest that we all work to seek a peaceful solution” rather than “We’ll destroy x, y , z of Russia” may be beneficial. Additionally, everyone impacted negatively should be treated with the same respect – fully agree that if there are racially segregated lines at borders then the various nations – inc. UN – need to address but preferably this is not required.

Interesting to see if VP will accept the invite for a 1-to-1. Ceasefire, neutral location, China as mediators.

I dont understand why anyone would think that they would do this.

Putin didn’t seem to have any problem deploying them in Salisbury (with it’s 123m spire) I think Zelensky has suggested there’ already been 3 attempts at his life, I can’t imagine for a minute Putin wouldn’t deploy nerve agents if he thought it would be in his best interests to do so.

However, from the way it’s being used as a stick to beat other people on this thread, I’m worried it’s being used to prove moral and intellectual superiority to other posters rather than raised out of general concern for the way people of colour have been treated at the border.

Seems to be the case. Anything but discuss the invasion of one state by an aggressor state.

He has used chemical attacks on a few individuals now and that’s just the ones we know about. In Russia his foes just jump out of windows with holes in the back of their heads.

“stumpy – using the term ‘big hitters’ gives the wrong impression”

Am I being included in the big hitters now?

Well it’s Taken me 10 years to get here, so I’d like to thank:

The good people,
The bad people,
The stupid people,
The trolls,
The people who post ‘this thread used to be interesting until…’.[their bubble got burst]
binners, for teaching me that a Monty Python clip wins every argument.
Those who come here like lambs seeking enlightenment,
The Corbynistas for their entertainment value alone and last of all…

The Mods.

I couldn’t have done it all without you.

Do I get the STW version of a Blue Peter badge or something?

…would be nice sometimes, wouldn’t it?

Derailing the thread apparently = doing anything other than taking part in incessant obsessive hysterical war-porn.

Calling for a tiny amount of restraint/perspective is not to be tolerated.

OK guys, as you were.

Every poster in this thread has called for restraint. You talk as if we’re all calling for an attack of Russia. No one has done that. No one has called for any strikes by Western countries, but preparation to defend other countries is essential, because the “Putin will not invade Ukraine” line was bogus, and there is genuine concern that it will not end there.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/04/nato-chief-warns-of-worse-suffering-in-ukraine-and-russian-attacks-elsewhere

“We have a responsibility as Nato allies to prevent this war from escalating beyond Ukraine, because that will be even more dangerous, more devastating, and will cause even more human suffering. So we have made it clear we are not going to move into Ukraine neither on the ground or in the Ukrainian airspace.“

I sense no-one really knows what the true ultimate desired outcome for this actually is. Regardless, for a notable and significant number of humans it is completely wrong and unnecessary.

I think for pretty much all the countries in the world bar one, the desired outcome is for Putin to give up and go home!

However. Shall we try and scope some possible options? I’ll start?

1. Ukraine surrenders. Highly unlikely. Russia will be a global pariah, countries like Finland/Sweden etc will be very keen to join NATO, Putin will surely want to regroup and crack on into Moldova.
2. It grinds on for weeks, and Ukraine eventually cedes some territory – perhaps DNR and LNR or Crimea / South Coast (which I reckon he wants more than Donbas – warm water ports and all that). Ukraine won’t want to go for this, and Putin will surely want to regroup and crack on into the rest of Ukraine. Also seems unlikely.
3. Continued supply of weapons and volunteers sees Ukraine able to beat Putin back and, combined with the rapid North Koreafication of Russia, he ‘gives up’?? Would seem highly unlikely. But possibly more likely than #1?
4. Stalemate. Putin slowly demolishes Ukraine like he did Aleppo. Ukraine doesn’t give up. Sanctions pulverise Russia, famine starts to kick in in Ukraine.
5. Other?? Russia can’t start attacking other countries – he’s already pulling troops out of Kazakhstan as it is.

I don’t know, some variant of #2 seems possible? Ukraine cedes territory, but joins the EU, and accepts some kind of EU but non-NATO defence force? But #4 seems the most likely?

Some of you need to toughen up a bit. I mean that in the nicest way possible as I know I’ll get slated for this, but it is not healthy to get as engaged with this as some of you are, obsessing over by-the-minute minute happenings and news feeds, and over analysing everything. It’s similar to the covid thread, it’s become a very dark pit of fearmongering and depression over circumstances you can’t change.

Take a break from the news and get some fresh air. It’s not healthy to feel like you need to be constantly worried about this. Yes it’s concerning, but being concerned wont fix it if that makes sense?

I think the sanctions mean the tipping point will be earlier, in a month Putin probably won’t be around

Amen @airvent

Every poster in this thread has called for restraint. You talk as if we’re all calling for an attack of Russia. No one has done that.

The thread is full of people calling for Putin’s assassination. And as mentioned this has been discussed on national TV. Imagine if someone had assassinated Tony Blair or George W Bush as a response to the Gulf War. Appropriate? Helpful?

Dictators choose the manner of their own dethronement. Blair and Bush were not dictators, and, much as I dislike and campaigned against both of them, had short terms and had to face the ballot box. If Putin makes it so that his time in charge can only end one way, that’s down to him. I want him pushed aside. I want him stood up to. I want him rejected. I want him deposed, not killed. The crackdowns on any democratic dissent in Russia make this look very unlikely from this distance though.

The thread is full of people calling for Putin’s assassination.

It is not. Who said that?

You’re not allowed to deviate from the narrative of ‘Ukraine/NATO saintly – Putin = Hitler with nukes’. Any information that might suggest anything like that is ‘derailing the thread’.

It is not. Who said that?

Several people have said things like ‘we can only hope someone in his inner circle decides to take him out’. I CBA going and finding them but they’re there.

We can’t. Putin doesn’t want to solve it. It’s in his hands.

In a “play the ball not the player” way… That’s a bit of a defeatist attitude isn’t it? I am not having a pop, nor am I suggesting that Putins likely to have his mind changed… But this is where the deep problem solving comes in.

I’ll be the first to admit I’ve committed some relatively hairbrained ideas to this thread so far, and probably will do more… But when did anybody win a war by sitting back and giving up all hope? 🤷🏻‍♂️

Work with what you have… Putin isn’t going to be changed… So you Have to find ways of isolating his ability to provide influence. All sorts of coup scenarios have been thrown out there, putting a price on his head etc… This isn’t war mongering incidentally, it’s people proactively trying to think of a way around a world defeating problem, a guy who has bent all the rules to fit his own agenda, so maybe we need to bend our “rules” slightly, even just once, to deal with the problem…

Anyway… I’ve had another brain wave… Intelligence is suggesting he’s almost certainly holed up in his Siberian Nuclear bunker now. We can read into this a bit more in that all of his media submitted in the last 2/3 days has been of him solo, addressing the camera directly, looking like he is in a studio rather than in offices at the Kremlin… Clutching at straws? Maybe…

But someone knows where this bunker is… Someone knows how to switch the power, the internet off, lock and seal the doors and just walk away from it all to be hailed as an international hero! Don’t even need to do any dirty work, just lock him in there and walk away… Let him live the rest of his life in his own personal safety! 🤷🏻‍♂️

The thread is full of people calling for Putin’s assassination.

its not

And as mentioned this has been discussed on national TV.

the point of a free press is they can largely say what they like including debating something that a lot of people probably thought when they hear “its Putin’s war not Russia’s war”.

Imagine if someone had assassinated Tony Blair or George W Bush as a response to the Gulf War.

I’m sure people will have suggested it! Certainly, some people wanted them arrested. I’m sure many people suggesting killing Putin would be content if we was simply imprisoned.

Appropriate? Helpful?

no more or less so than any contribution you’ve made.

My take on “how does this end”?

Ukraine is lost. We can’t save it by intervening and Putin won’t stop.
Poland/other NATO states are a different thing. Then we would, due to treaties, be inevitably drawn into military action.

So we need to increase our support for other bordering non-NATO countries. The only way we can do that is to grant NATO membership. Putin won’t like it but he’s forced in on himself.

Russia has to be made a pariah state. Continue the most severe economic sanctions. It means we have to turn the heating down and drive a bit less, but hey, we are all cyclists aren’t we? My parents went through much more in WWII.

You’re not allowed to deviate from the narrative

this must be the cancel culture everyone talks about.

I’ve just been told by a reliable source that most nuclear physicists recommend against sprawling gunfights near nuclear power plants.

Unconfirmed, but huge if true

In your knowledge or world history and politics when have political assassinations turned out well? Wasn’t there a famous one that started a world war or something?

Some of you need to toughen up a bit.

Some people appear to have underestimated the seriousness of the situation.

Ok so I’ve said the only way this ends positivity for the Ukraine is Putin going by hook or by crook. Maybe china tells him to wind it up?
Blair was kicked out of power in a democratic election he was no dictator no laws where brought in by him to send his own kin to labour camps for for protesting the war or even calling it one. ( I’m far from his biggest fan)

Putin won’t stop this now and that not war mongering.

I’ve just been told by a reliable source that most nuclear physicists recommend against sprawling gunfights near nuclear power plants.

Unconfirmed, but huge if true

I’m guessing they’ve never been in a gunfight. For balance, you need to hear the opinions of people who get in gunfights as their job but have never studied nuclear physics.

Here’s what Channel4 Fact Check thinks (from a few days ago admittedly):

The UK and Russia would only end up at war if Russia attacks a NATO member and the UK decides to respond with military might.

As Ukraine is not part of NATO, the UK has no obligation to make any military intervention so long as the fighting stays where it is.

And we should stress: Russia has not yet attacked any NATO member and might never do so.

Even if it did launch an assault, there’s no guarantee that the rest of NATO would declare war or take military action in response.

And even if NATO members did retaliate with force, there are plenty of barriers – not least the prospect of mutual assured destruction and major loss of life on both sides – to prevent any country involved in a hypothetical future NATO-Russia war from deploying nuclear weapons.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-could-uk-go-to-war-with-russia-and-could-there-be-nuclear-conflict

Seems a pretty balanced take on it. I just don’t see it as helpful or appropriate to be talking up the chances of a nuclear war/wider conflict.

I believe most people don’t like gun fights.