Ukraine

I just don’t see how Putin’s downfall will result in anything better for Russians in the medium term, even if it did stop the Ukraine invasion.

Medium term the top priority has to be getting the Russian army out of Ukraine.

Long term, who knows. I’d like to think that the West is now less naive. What we need to realise is that we’ve been in a form of hybrid warfare since 2007 and possibly before.

It almost feels like Putin’s influence in Brexit and Trump have just been brushed off as the high-jinks of a mischievous former spy rather than a long running and coordinated attack on democracy. It might sound hyberbolic and if I’d heard the same thing a week ago I would have said it was scaremongering but I no longer believe this.

I doubt whoever follows is going to be allowed as much leeway to operate as Putin has been.

Please don’t. Protest by all means but please don’t involve the poppy, or war memorials.

+Another 1

If you must protest, spray paint an embassy or sink an oligarch’s yacht or two.

as much as I want to believe all the western propaganda and want to see Putin fail it does look like they are actually trying to reduce the deaths they cause. well that’s my theory for the slow advance, giving Ukrainians time to escape before flattening stuff. I’m sure they are going to start getting increasingly more destructive as time goes on

The soldiers were told they were going in as a liberating force, freeing the people (their people) from an oppressive Nazi-esque regime. The story seems to be that they were told they’d be greeted as heroes, welcomed by all, defending the populace from a fascist Government.

They’re not there to kill civilians; they were told that the civilians are basically Russian and want to be part of Russia so they seem to be very confused when faced by an unarmed crowd telling them to go home. And it’s very difficult for a force that is sent in to “liberate the people” suddenly being told to open fire on them. They look and sound like them, they speak Russian.

It’s a bit different when you’re dropping bombs from aircraft or firing missiles from afar and you don’t actually have to look at normal people. Even then, if you want to take on Ukraine as part of Russia, it doesn’t look great if you’ve flattened the place beforehand.

I in no way endorse this clip, but it needs watching in the context of countries all over Europe, who already take more refugees from other conflicts than we do, opening their doors to anyone fleeing the Ukraine war zone (not just the close family of existing residents)…

Tory MP Sir Edward Leigh says Lincolnshire is too full for Ukrainians

He says in Lincolnshire "we've done our bit with migration from Eastern Europe" pic.twitter.com/mMwF1a3jkA

— PoliticsJOE (@PoliticsJOE_UK) March 1, 2022

Normal for Lincolnshire.

Thanks Kelvin. What a horrible t%#t he is.

I’m appalled by the Tory government tbh. Absolutely disgusting human beings.

Is this a real person or a Spitting Image puppet?

Pat Robertson came out of retirement to claim that Putin "is being compelled by God" to invade Ukraine in preparation for a massive End Times invasion of Israel. pic.twitter.com/Pmwybf57Ay

— Right Wing Watch (@RightWingWatch) February 28, 2022

Feels like the next phase has begun – terrible, just terrible…

Sir Edward Leigh – the living personification of the word gammon

Not being personal, but was it really worth posting that comment?

@inkster I’m Irish so yes it was.

I in no way endorse this clip

I spent some time in the 2010’s helping to set up a multi GP practice and dentist site in the outskirts of Boston. It was a great purpose built building with minor surgery rooms, and a new chemists, really nice and one that had been needed in the area for ages. Boston at the time had quite a large eastern European immigrant population (agricultural pickers) . We recruited dentists (my part of the project) from Romanian, Estonia etc. The reaction from both the local press, the locals themselves was an interesting one. The building completion had just co-insided with the up tick in migration, but it was almost impossible to dissuade local people that it hadn’t been built because of that immigration, they almost universally saw themselves as second class citizens in their own town, and this just ‘confirmed’ their suspicions. The Lloyds bank in the High street had billboards in Polish, people were sent flyers for loans in Romanian regardless of whether that was their language, and there was receptionist with wee badges showing which languages they spoke, as one old pensioner said to me “They don’t have a Union Jack on that do they”

Sometimes immigration, refugee or not especially into areas that haven’t otherwise changed in decades needs to be handled with just a bit of care and attention.

Sometimes immigration, refugee or not especially into areas that haven’t otherwise changed in decades needs to be handled with just a bit of care and attention.

I assume you mean by educating the ignorant gammons traditional voters on the realities of immigration and not by turning away refugees (unless they want to pick fruit)?

…And 10 years before that the people of Boston were complaining about the Portuguese immigrants.

I worked in educational policy for that area in the early 2000s. Many young people didn’t see the point of education as they saw there parents get easy food factory agency jobs without qualifications and were content to do just the same themselves. I’ve seen the same in Australia with mining work in regional areas. “Why bother, we’ll be loaded anyway.”

… I digress

The point is that I’m pretty sure if you asked people in Boston; they’d welcome Ukrainian refugees as much as the next town, but just “unlimited” immigration isn’t always the social good that folks in Westminster see it as. There’s probably some education needed and it’s easy to mutter about gammon MP under your breath, but having spent some time in places where there’s been high immigration, it’s not without consequences.

My nephews wife is from Ukraine. They have offered her cousins to come and stay with them in Glasgow until its safe to return. The UK government has refused them a visa as they are not a dependant of the uk citizen. So he has taken leave of his job as a doctor to go and help them out in their country.

Anyway, back to the matter in hand, this morning Ben Wallace said this about a no-fly zone

The Ukrainian armed forces are outnumbered on the ground massively by Russian armour and Russian army. One of the few weapons they have against those soldiers on the ground and forces, like those big armoured columns, is the ability to fly their fast jets and to use UAVs to strike logistical chains and their air defences etc.

Seems to suggest that Ukrainian air force is still operational at some level?

Alan Erasmus, a name all Manchester music fans will know, has gone to Ukraine to do whatever he can. There are brave people appearing in all sorts of places.

I spent some time in the 2010’s helping to set up a multi GP practice and dentist site in the outskirts of Boston. It was a great purpose built building with minor surgery rooms, and a new chemists, really nice and one that had been needed in the area for ages. Boston at the time had quite a large eastern European immigrant population (agricultural pickers) . We recruited dentists (my part of the project) from Romanian, Estonia etc. The reaction from both the local press, the locals themselves was an interesting one. The building completion had just co-insided with the up tick in migration, but it was almost impossible to dissuade local people that it hadn’t been built because of that immigration, they almost universally saw themselves as second class citizens in their own town, and this just ‘confirmed’ their suspicions. The Lloyds bank in the High street had billboards in Polish, people were sent flyers for loans in Romanian regardless of whether that was their language, and there was receptionist with wee badges showing which languages they spoke, as one old pensioner said to me “They don’t have a Union Jack on that do they”

****

Sometimes immigration, refugee or not especially into areas that haven’t otherwise changed in decades needs to be handled with just a bit of care and attention.

I worked in educational policy for that area in the early 2000s. Many young people didn’t see the point of education as they saw there parents get easy food factory agency jobs without qualifications and were content to do just the same themselves. I’ve seen the same in Australia with mining work in regional areas. “Why bother, we’ll be loaded anyway.”

***

My nephews wife is from Ukraine. They have offered her cousins to come and stay with them in Glasgow until its safe to return. The UK government has refused them a visa as they are not a dependant of the uk citizen. So he has taken leave of his job as a doctor to go and help them out in their country.

We really are a nation of scumbags, governed by scumbags, aren’t we?

pic.twitter.com/zOV2VwmccY

— Nie_Ten_Tyminski ↙️↙️↙️ (@uniquelogin) March 2, 2022

Seems to suggest that Ukrainian air force is still operational at some level?

Definitely is.

This is a summary from a fairly trustworthy source, it appears to be behind a paywall but you can stick an email address in to get access for free.

https://www.economist.com/europe/2022/02/28/the-woes-of-the-russian-war-machine-are-big-and-real-are-they-also-temporary

PS how long until someone puts a techno (house) track based on those gun shots over that clip? Also, looting already?

We really are a nation of scumbags, governed by scumbags, aren’t we?

We are very flawed as a nation, but we are a nation full of friendly welcoming cooperative people. You’ll meet them every day.

Moscow stock market closed again for the third day.  They are just delaying the inevitable freefall carnage when it does.  At what point do ordinary Russians start to question why most of the world is unified in condemnation if the Ru government line is true?  I know they have have to view the world through a very distorted state controlled lens, but there must also be some epic cognitive dissonance going on too.

My views are definitely tending in that direction.

We really are a nation of scumbags, governed by scumbags, aren’t we?

No, most people are fairly decent but malleable. The government are the scum – they’ve created the social environment that encourages the negative sentiments because they can then cash in on it.

“@inkster I’m Irish so yes it was.”

Fair enough but you didn’t provide that context when you posted did you. And without context your comment came across as banal.

MoreCashThanDash
Full Member
Normal for Lincolnshire.

No it’s not

Lol at the lone looter. Armed soldier with no-one around and he still fails to gain entry. Doesn’t bode well for the house-to-house combat phase.

“Dmitry! Alexi! Secure that building!”
“Sarge, door’s locked.”

(Yeah I know it won’t go like that in reality)

Normal for Lincolnshire.

You would have thought, given Lincolnshire’s significant role in WW2, that their MP might show a bit of empathy.

@thols2 – gratifying to see that even the architecture and infrastructure is putting up a stiff resistance!

That actually made me laugh, talk about incompetence.

Fair enough but you didn’t provide that context when you posted did you. And without context your comment came across as banal.

Now you’re getting personal.

edward leigh is, and always has been, an ignorant bigot.
His constituency of Gainsborough shares many of the same views referred to above regarding Boston.
His views will certainly be shared by some of his constituency and will empower them in anti-immigration rhetoric.
I lived for a time in Lincoln which is just down the road from Gainsborough so have some knowledge of leigh and his constituency.
He is an odious sac of pus; another bollock-faced foghorn of ignorance to stand alongside farage.

I spent some time in the 2010’s helping to set up a multi GP practice and dentist site in the outskirts of Boston. It was a great purpose built building with minor surgery rooms, and a new chemists, really nice and one that had been needed in the area for ages. Boston at the time had quite a large eastern European immigrant population (agricultural pickers) . We recruited dentists (my part of the project) from Romanian, Estonia etc. The reaction from both the local press, the locals themselves was an interesting one. The building completion had just co-insided with the up tick in migration, but it was almost impossible to dissuade local people that it hadn’t been built because of that immigration, they almost universally saw themselves as second class citizens in their own town, and this just ‘confirmed’ their suspicions. The Lloyds bank in the High street had billboards in Polish, people were sent flyers for loans in Romanian regardless of whether that was their language, and there was receptionist with wee badges showing which languages they spoke, as one old pensioner said to me “They don’t have a Union Jack on that do they”

****

Sometimes immigration, refugee or not especially into areas that haven’t otherwise changed in decades needs to be handled with just a bit of care and attention.

I worked in educational policy for that area in the early 2000s. Many young people didn’t see the point of education as they saw there parents get easy food factory agency jobs without qualifications and were content to do just the same themselves. I’ve seen the same in Australia with mining work in regional areas. “Why bother, we’ll be loaded anyway.”

***

My nephews wife is from Ukraine. They have offered her cousins to come and stay with them in Glasgow until its safe to return. The UK government has refused them a visa as they are not a dependant of the uk citizen. So he has taken leave of his job as a doctor to go and help them out in their country.

We really are a nation of scumbags, governed by scumbags, aren’t we?

The short answer is many people in Lincolnshire would welcome Ukrainians at this time, given what is happening. I owuld like to think most would.

The longer nuanced answer is that the county is one that has been left behind in many ways – not part of the southern boom, not benefitting form being in the Midlands proper with good transport links, not seen as part of the north that needs levelling up. The county is very insular in many ways with people who haven’t seen other parts of the world (or often even of England)! Many people – probably myself included – like the fact that it feels a bit stuck in the 60s in many ways – a real sense of community, low crime, etc etc. The downside is that it is stuck in the 60s in many ways that sometimes aren’t so positive…

Economically people have large houses (land is cheap) so aren’t seen as poor, but wages are low, employment is hugely seasonal in much of the county, and yet areas such as Lincoln and Stamford are very affluent. Public spending has been reduced so access to services is really poor – you cannot really live here without a car as there is no public transport, and many towns have no schools, GP surgeries, Dentists etc. within a 20 mile radius. My nearerst train station is 12 miles away which takes 25 mintes to drive (country roads) and frankly has so few trains that I tend to drive to Newark (50 miles/1hr10min) to get a train as it is more connected.

So I think people would be welcoming, but the concerns about overstreetched services already and the impact of yet more people is a real one!

johndoh – lincolnshire has more than it’s fair share of objectionable MPs
In addition to leigh I give you Lia Nici, Caroline Johnson and Karl McCartney; not one redeeming feature between them all.

I said your comment came across as banal, not you personally.

Though feel free to prove me wrong…

Russians assisting small businesses by making free advert for door lock manufacturing company. (As reported on RT).

From a link in the article up there ^^^^, changing the text of roadsigns to “Russians F*ck Off” is Clarkson level genius.

ji – some areas of Lincoln are relatively affluent but your blanket statement that Lincoln is very affluent is way off the mark.
I don’t want to get dragged into a side discussion when the thread is about Ukraine.

You think commenting that people never forget boundaries imposed on them is banal?

The Battle of Techno House is brilliant – he was probably trying to liberate an iPhone as he won’t be able to buy another for a long time.

PCA has posted that his 47 year old friend in Lviv has just messaged to say he’s been called up. He has left his dog with a neighbour and been put on a bus going to Kyiv, which has been blessed by a priest. Neither of them are expecting to see each other again.

Honestly though Pat Robertson was dead. He was an MS-DOS version of Trump from the 80’s.

Anyway, feeling slightly heartened that some big hitter corporates are starting to really turn the screws. Exxon, Boeing, Apple, MSC, Maersk for example. Whilst there may be ‘some’ self-interest, there is no doubt that Russians will be getting a clear message that something is very wrong with what is happening with the special operations in Ukraine.

there is now just complete resignation by everyone that this is just how it is

So those hoping for the solution to the Putin problem to come from inside Russia are just delusional. Its just not going to happen

I get what you’re saying, and I echo those saying about “Russian stoicism” and acceptance of it…

However… Russia is a very corrupt country as we well know. Corruption has only one loyalty… Money! For more than 2 decades now, Putin has made a lot of ostensibly nasty characters very wealthy indeed, and all of a sudden, he has not only made them very un-wealthy in real terms (can’t access their assets, can’t trade them for foreign currency etc), but has shone a light on their I’ll gotten gains to the rest of the world meaning that unless they do something about it, the gravy train is well and truly over…

The best thing about greed is that it is predictable (apply that phrase to Putins tactics right now for instance!). Greed will make a lot of allowances for behaviour it might find reprehensible itself but is willing to turn a blind eye towards if it makes it rich. But greed will also turn on those who cease to be a valuable asset at a moments notice, especially when faced with a newer, more lucrative proposal…

Don’t think so one dimensionally of Russia as Putin/the state and 150m civilians used to putting up and making do. Russia is a hotbed of really **** nasty people, especially in Moscow. Ratchet the price up on Putins head (and I’m not saying it would be cheap!), and he’ll fall sooner or later… Especially if the CIA were involved and started offering all sorts of impunity and special terms as per when they usually finance revolutions in dictatorships.

What happens next is potentially almost as big an issue of course, but that’s a matter for another day…

A $100Bn price tag on Putins head, and total impunity for any actions taken to get it would do the trick I’m sure… No messing about with a few $million here or there. Dangle a big carrot, get the nasties of the world to do your dirty work! You could even sell the price to the Russian Oligarchy as a “special wealth tax” before you reinstate their assets and allow them to start buying shitloads of Rubles whilst they’re still cheap, this negating any financial inconvenience in the long term for said individuals…

I’m being deadly serious here!

Vlads Russian Imperialist War wouldn’t last very long against the combined greed and corruption in his own country, let alone if that offer was extended to any of his enemies… Even his own people will turn on him in time with the current economic sanctions imposed (which need to cut deeper still of course, stop any oil or gas leaving Russia now!!!) as the banks repossess their homes in the name of the war effort, they start to go hungry and they can’t get important supplies they might need from the rest of the world. This will take much longer though than merely incentivising the underworld to do the dirty work, so it depends the costs that the US (I say the US cos let’s not beat about the bush here, they’d be organising it!) puts on Ukrainian lives in the meantime… The financial siege tactics will work in the end, but they’re a slow burner to someone who has amassed such a personal and state wealth already!