Ukraine

Can you imagine how popular the invasion of Iraq would have been if the Iraqis had looked like us

The invasion of Iraq was popular?!

I don’t want to watch that scumbag. What happens? Someone heckles him I presume?

Surprised he didn’t pull the normal face he pulls when he’s being criticised in public.

Can you imagine how popular the invasion of Iraq would have been if the Iraqis had looked like us, spoke the same language as us, and had access to twitter/FB/instagram/TikTok etc?

Or how much support the population would have, if we were broadcasting unpixilated pictures of children being blown up in their bedrooms from our missile strikes gone astray, or due to incorrect intelligence ?.

The invasion of Iraq was popular?!

Of course it was. As i certainly dont remember many headlines saying STOP THE WAR.

There were some people, but they were demonized in the press and in public social media forums.

I don’t want to watch that scumbag. What happens? Someone heckles him I presume?

Someone asked him a proper question requiring a committal answer. But we all know how far that’s likely to get with Johnson

He essentially went as close to a war zone as he dared (ie: nowhere near), to host a press conference where he said absolutely nothing at all.

Basically, he’s now competing with Instagram Liz for photo ops

Thats where we’re at as a country.

Global Briain, eh?

I was talking to someone about this recently. Can you imagine how popular the invasion of Iraq would have been if the Iraqis had looked like us, spoke the same language as us, and had access to twitter/FB/instagram/TikTok etc?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36746453

The invasion of Iraq was popular?!

It was popular enough that Blair and Bush didn’t end up swinging from a lamp post.

While the majority may have been against the ‘war’, both Bush and Blair were re-elected afterwards. Nevermind forcibly removed from office by a popular uprising.

Given that even he surely can’t be blind to effect he’s had on world opinion and the isolation of Russia by the rest of the world over the last few days, to even conceive that this would be a winning bet he could pull off. He would (by launching a strike onto a European capital or target) lay Russia open to far more devastating retaliatory attacks.

I’m a few pages behind today, but I feel it’s worth mentioning that Putin is on record saying that a world with no Russia isn’t worth having.

He’s properly insane.

…

So Johnson just confirmed the UK won’t go to war with Russia in that clip. What does that mean if NATO does?

The invasion of Iraq was popular?!

Of course it was. As i certainly dont remember many headlines saying STOP THE WAR

Just a million people marching on the streets against a war?

IWM Anti war protests

I’m a few pages behind today, but I feel it’s worth mentioning that Putin is on record saying that a world with no Russia isn’t worth having.

No one in the West is proposing a World without Russia. But it would be nice if it had a functioning democracy and didn’t swan about invading neighbouring countries.

I wonder if Ukraine have got their application to join NATO in yet.

That’s the depressing thing about it, all those people and it still wasn’t enough to stop it or to hold him to account.

Iraq certainly changed my outlook on my chosen career & politics soon after, not many good memories of 2008-2010.

So Johnson just confirmed the UK won’t go to war with Russia in that clip. What does that mean if NATO does?

Without wishing to derail the thread, Johnson has a tendency to sit at the back of the room saying ‘ooh, can’t do that’ until the mood begins to waver- he has an uncanny ability to pick this change early, and then rushes to the front, touting both the need for urgent change and himself to lead.

Just a million people marching on the streets against a war?

IWM Anti war protests

Sure, but my point was more to compare the lack of response to our attack on a country (like I said, Blair was re-elected, nevermind forcibly removed from office) with Putin’s Russia.

If, instead of invading Iraq and causing the devastation we caused there, we had invaded Ireland and killed women and children who looked like us and spoke like us, would Blair have faced a revolution and been removed? If people had access to videos the way they do today would that have made a difference?

Because that is essentially what we are asking people in Russia to do. Putin is not going to stop for anything.

The narrative of the young soldiers smartphone convo with his mother is a short but brutal home-team snapshot for the Russian people. But are all the sanctions, public outcry, casualties & fatalities enough to cause change?

Just a million people marching on the streets against a war?

And were they demonized by the press ?.  I can just see the daily mail spouting some sort of negativity about them :lol:

In fact, we could probably find out peoples attitude to the issue on here as there would have been an emotive thread somewhere back in the STW archives.

But nobody likes being reminded of their gullibility. And to be fair im probably one of them. Too many horrific details came out about the Hussein regime not for me to get seriously upset about it.

That was of course i found out the US had supported him for 10+ years. Maybe it was at that point I stopped looking towards our own allies as some sort of benevolent group.

Some excellent points about the idea of a no-fly zone. It’s just a slogan and the people calling for one don’t understand what it would entail. It would entail defeating Russia militarily because they would not accept it and would retaliate. So, NFZ is just a coded demand that NATO join the war. If NATO joins the war, it will almost certainly go nuclear.

This will be obvious information to many people and I'm no military planner, but to those demanding a "no fly zone", this is a slogan and you should understand what it means. A "no fly zone" isn't a force field or a declaration. It's a standing order to shoot down any

— Josh Marshall (@joshtpm) March 1, 2022

I think the comparisons and contrasts to brown people being blown up are certainly uncomfortable, but also a bit unfair.

As well as the very natural and inevitable bias due to proximity, in the case of the Middle East, there is also the long history of failed solutions. There isn’t a clear way out there.

In Europe, we have a substantial history of reasonably peaceful and sort-of democratic governance. I’m not claiming everything has been rosy here, but watching the unprovoked destruction of a neighbouring functioning democratic state which has substantial popular support is very different from wondering about which despot you’d rather have in charge in some fairly remote place that you’ve never visited.

That was of course i found out the US had supported him for 10+ years. Maybe it was at that point I stopped looking towards our own allies as some sort of benevolent group.

I can’t think of a single example of a conflict since WW2 where there hasn’t been so much ambiguity and duplicity that it’s impossible to say that, on balance, we should absolutely be involved in this conflict.

This conflict is the first conflict in my lifetime, like I said, possibly since WW2 where there is an absolute right side and an absolute wrong side (or at least as close as you can get to absolutes in geopolitics).

It doesn’t mean we stop scrutinizing our own politicians and continue to look at our own actions, but I don’t think you can say, ‘we invaded Iraq, therefore we can’t criticize Putin.’

And, of course, we don’t forget that there are human beings involved everywhere. I share an office with a Russian and she’s worried that she’s not going to be able to send money home to support her mother anymore.

She probably more worried about the friends she has living in Ukraine though.

And were they demonized by the press ?. I can just see the daily mail spouting some sort of negativity about them 😆

Genuine question, were you around in 2003? My fault for assuming that everyone here is >40, white and male! But here’s the link to the Daily Fail news archive from the day after the protests. It’s questioning of Blair and reflective of the views from the protest.

WARNING – Daily Fail (2003)

I think the comparisons and contrasts to brown people being blown up are certainly uncomfortable, but also a bit unfair.

As well as the very natural and inevitable bias due to proximity, in the case of the Middle East, there is also the long history of failed solutions. There isn’t a clear way out there.

Sure, my point was more that this is what the equivalent is for Russia now (ie, it would be like us invading Ireland if we’d been getting told for years that Ireland was being run by Dublin’s version of Saddam Hussein).

It doesn’t mean we stop scrutinizing our own politicians and continue to look at our own actions, but I don’t think you can say, ‘we invaded Iraq, therefore we can’t criticize Putin.’

No, i for one an not claiming that. But at the same time we have to acknowledge our actions. To have charges laid against the Russian military that this aggressive invasion constitutes a war crime is to deny we’ve been doing the exact same thing,and many times before.

As you said, Bush and Blair arent hanging off a lampost.

If we can at least acknowledge our actions, im sure it will go a long was to finding forgiveness in ourselves, others and maybe look more to finding peaceful solutions to our differences.

The Ukrainians are controling the media narrative so comprehensively at the moment and soliciting an overwhelmingly emotional response from the West. Calling for a no fly zone is another part of their hearts and minds strategy.

Wether they think it would actually happen or they are just making a chess move in a game of diplomatic brinkmanship is another question.

It would be a disaster if we were to take it seriously. A disaster for us, for Ukrainians and for Russians. The only winner would be Putin because even a pyrhic victory is a victory for him.

Genuine question, were you around in 2003?

I know that question wasn’t aimed at me but yes, I was.

I was also around in 2005 when the majority of the country voted for a Blair led government.

Whatever the strength of feeling was, it wasn’t enough for the people to storm the gates of Downing Street and it wasn’t even enough to vote the mass-murdering **** out of office.

The question is, will the Russians be better than we were? I hope so.

This conflict is the first conflict in my lifetime, like I said, possibly since WW2 where there is an absolute right side and an absolute wrong side

Sure about that? Have you read about the history of this conflict? It didn’t just start last week.

It looks like the Artillery is about to commence their attack. Russians saying this is to stop the information attacks against Russia. They are urging people to leave their homes as the onslaught is about to start.
Jeez. This is heart breaking.

Sure about that? Have you read about the history of this conflict? It didn’t just start last week.

No, it started back in 2007.

In fact, if you want to start going back through the timeline we’re going to end up discussing the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

However, once you invade a neighbouring country, no matter the justification (please, let’s not start going through hypothetical justifications) it becomes pretty binary, imo.

It was popular enough that Blair and Bush didn’t end up swinging from a lamp post.

While the majority may have been against the ‘war’, both Bush and Blair were re-elected afterwards. Nevermind forcibly removed from office by a popular uprising.

Because those were the only two options we had? Either support the war or storm the capital and murder the prime minister? I’m struggling to follow your reasoning there tbh

Terrible. I imagine they will give Kyiv a huge barrage before sending troops in.

Looking at the relative size of Kyiv compared to some of the other places attacked in this way, Grozny for example, it is far far larger, and the scope for casualties far greater…

will the Russians be better than we were?

I hope so too. At least we have a democratic, legal and law enforcement systems that allow a million people out onto the streets to protest against the government.

One lesson to pick up from Iraq is how important there is to have a plan for a replacement government. Doubtless Putin has one for Ukraine (in fact it appears that the intelligence has even identified who will lead it FCO press release)

A revolution in Russia is risky because there is no alternative power structure to fill any vacuum. The least bad short term option would be military, but even they would face huge opposition from Putin’s friendly agencies like the FSB.

Unlikely that an overthrown Putin will end in anything but hardship for the Russians. Again…

I was also around in 2005 when the majority of the country voted for a Blair led government.

Aside from when you look at 2001 the majority had dropped a lot (admittedly continuing a trend from 1997) and there was the problem that the main alternative was equally war mad.
The Libdems did see an increase in votes though.

The optics of a Polish owned, Soviet built, Ukranian flagged Mig 29 going up a against a Russian Mig 29 is one thing. It reflects the fact that the Cold War never really ended and this conflict is another episode in the protracted break up of the Soviet Union.

A Eurofighter even entering Ukranian airspace would be reflective of something else entirely.

Either support the war or storm the capital and murder the prime minister?

Actually, I also gave the option of not re-electing mass-murderers. We didn’t choose that option either.

Anyway, my point was that it’s probably wishful thinking that Russians are going to somehow overthrow Putin.

I then made the point that, while our war was thousands of miles away against people who didn’t look like us, didn’t speak our language, and had few shared cultural traits, Putin’s war is more like us invading Ireland in the age of social media.

So maybe it’s not completely hopeless.

I hope so too. At least we have a democratic, legal and law enforcement systems that allow a million people out onto the streets to protest against the government.

Thanks to Priti that will soon be illegal.

However, once you invade a neighbouring country, no matter the justification (please, let’s not start going through hypothetical justifications) it becomes pretty binary, imo.

Hmmmmmmmm I wouldn’t call it binary. And justifications aren’t always hypothetical, these are the things that need to be decided upon in every conflict.

If I understand this, the Russian military leaders are telling Putin that they’re ramping up nuclear readiness but signaling to NATO that they’re not really.