Ukraine

Well done guys, having a fight over who’s correct about the continuing relevance of the A10 is definitely an appropriate and mature response to current events.

These threads always end up descending into weapons porn. We now appear to have added some Top Trumps element into that. Well done to everyone involved 🙄

You’d deploy airframes depending on what effect you wanted to have and what was best suited to the environment. Payload volume, payload type, endurance, sensors are all other factors to consider.

From a ground perspective, you take whatever turns up and checks-in.

Well done guys, having a fight over who’s correct about the continuing relevance of the A10 is definitely an appropriate and mature response to current events

Given that this is having zero impact on anything outside of the blather of a cycling forum, people may as well crap on about airplanes.

I find it quite sad that a thread to discuss the political and military plight of the people of Ukraine is descending into an argument about the best machinery to kill people.

For gods sake have some thought and sensitivity.

If we’re talking about cluster bombs and Thermobaric weapons contravening the Geneva Convention, then I’m pretty sure an unprovoked Nuclear attack on a UN/NATO/EU ally (even if not a member state) would warrant a retaliation…

Neither Cluster Bombs not Thermobaric Weapons are specifically against the Geneva Conventions. The Geneva Conventions essentially cover attacks on / behaviour towards types of people and buildings not methods of warfare; the protected people are all non-combatants (e.g. civilians, prisoners of war, injured parties, medical staff, journalists). Rules of War are defined in the Hague Conventions along with specific other international treaties.

Neither Russia or Ukraine are signatories to the Cluster Bomb convention.

These threads always end up descending into weapons porn

Yup, some people are enjoying all this wayyyyyy too much. Gross.

Maybe a separate war porn thread is needed.

At some point you have to wonder if the Russian public don’t wonder if there is something fishy about the narrative they’ve been sold?

They may ask why the EU, and the West in general, is sanctioning them but nobody sanctioned the US or UK for invading Iraq or bombing Libya.

@nickc, but you forget some people are in tears, so talking about weapon systems is likely to upset them further.

More appropriate response than getting turned on like some of you though eh.

I’m not turned on, it’s work. But then some of you are turned on by being utter grief whores, so you know, you do you.

At some point you have to wonder if the Russian public don’t wonder if there is something fishy about the narrative they’ve been sold?

You would think so, especially if the Ukrainian estimate of Russian soldier deaths is even kind of close (4500 I think).

We might be overestimating the amount of contact soldiers are having with their families. Some suggestions on social media that captured Russians were allowed to ring their families, who didn’t even know where they were, let alone that they were fighting and many had died. Surely it can’t go on forever though.

Yup, some people are enjoying all this wayyyyyy too much. Gross.

Some people are interested in this stuff, there’s no reason to be pejorative. Both the Swedish govt and the Swiss govt had ended their decades long neutrality, and the Germans have ripped up their pacification policy; will you be aiming a swift twitter in their direction telling them how distasteful you find their discussions of sending weaponry to a war zone?

The A-10 has a weird ability to derail any discussion it appears in, turning any such conversation into a debate about the merits and failings of the A-10. How about we for once break the cycle and keep this thread on topic?

@bikesandboats, I can’t imagine the Russians are big on communication of accurate orders down to the lowest level so I find a lot of the claims about bods not having a scoobies pretty plausible.

Especially if the majority of that initial invading force are conscripts, people who are mostly there because they have to be, not because they want to be (by ‘there’ I mean in service, not Ukraine).

The removal/ban of PED’s and compartmentalised orders to ensure operational security makes sense, we do it, but to a more reasonable degree.

More appropriate response than getting turned on like some of you though eh.

Speak for youself, I personally find it aweful. As per my previous post, it’s only natural to discuss these things in times like this, why shouldn’t different weapons and strategies be discussed in a thread about one country invading another?

Well done guys, having a fight over who’s correct about the continuing relevance of the A10 is definitely an appropriate and mature response to current events.

Okay, fair enough. Maybe it’s in poor taste, these are real people being killed by nasty machines of war. I don’t think there was a fight though, just a couple of us chatting shit amongst ourselves and the incoherent ramblings of a couple of middle-aged Mountain Bikers online doesn’t change anything, certainly not each others opinions.

Equally fairly though, few, if any of us are experts in International Politics or the Politics of Eastern Europe, but we all gabber away the same, exchanging theories and protentional outcomes etc. It’s just chat, idle chat for the sake of idle chat. If you want the news and expert opinion, there are better outlets.

You would think so, especially if the Ukrainian estimate of Russian soldier deaths is even kind of close (4500 I think).

Why would you believe a Twitter account claiming to be accurately keeping a tally?

same as the Apache.

Which is also heavy, slow and lumbering, and not something I would want to be sat in in a contested airspace, especially one as relatively featureless with few places to hide as the predominantly flat plains of the Ukrainian topography…

This is guerilla warfare, hence Putin calling on the Chechens and any other nasties he can get his hands on. Nasty men with very underhand tactics going door to door with assault rifles might not seem as scary as a handful of tanks in your back yard, but it would be a lot more effective!

You would think so, especially if the Ukrainian estimate of Russian soldier deaths is even kind of close (4500 I think).

They’re saying 5300 now… The truth is, I am sure, somewhere between Ukraines claims and Russias near staunch denial to admit they have had any casualties, but even then, Russian troops are falling at somewhere between 5 and 10 to 1 compared to Ukrainians right now!

Putin may have a stranglehold on the media, and have captured Russian hearts for 2 decades now, but when people ask questions (and they inevitably will) they will start to see him for the tin pot dictator he really is. Hitler couldn’t hold off indefinitely with Nazi propaganda, and that was in an era when information was much less readily available and took a lot longer to come by too.

I will bring the conversation back (AGAIN!) to my point about the Russian Revolution in 1917… It’s amazing how quickly things can turn sour when the public find out the extent their leaders have been feeding them continual misinformation whilst perpetuating their poverty so that the elite can live in pure luxury and play their war games as and when they see fit too. 150m might seem a large number of people to “wake up” given that they have lived under Putin’s reign for over 2 decades now, but they would turn against him far quicker than it has taken for their trust in him to be built.

The A-10 has a weird ability to derail any discussion it appears in, turning any such conversation into a debate about the merits and failings of the A-10. How about we for once break the cycle and keep this thread on topic?

It’s like the MK1 VW Golf GTI… useless today, but if you slag it off, the fanbois will bing you some hurt.

@mattyfez, I’ll tolerate A10 shit chat, but back the eff off the Mk1. ;)

It’s like the MK1 VW Golf GTI… useless today,

Take that back right now! They might be horribly unreliable, unsafe, inefficient, noisy, polluting and slow compared to modern cars, but that doesn’t make them useless… okay, maybe you’re right.

You could have your military hardware one-upmanship contest on a separate thread.

Same with the “who’s mentally affected by this conflict” thread, but here we all are

"Go home!" Ukrainians chant at Russian soldiers at the city council building in Berdyansk pic.twitter.com/1puGbtn0hv

— Alec Luhn (@ASLuhn) February 28, 2022

I think soldiers will be learning quickly that they are not there as liberators. Without a quick victory, how long can Putin keep deployed soldiers believing the lies they were told before they were sent in?

UN Security Council winding up that Russia’s succession to USSR is possibly not correct, therefore not binding and that Russia should perhaps be removed.

Live:

Why would you believe a Twitter account claiming to be accurately keeping a tally?

The claim was made by Ukraine’s Defence Ministry, which I imagine would try to keep a tally and also have their ear to the ground. As I said though, who knows how accurate that number really is.

Edit to say the claim is “approximately 5300”

Or maybe your posts about derailing the thread are derailing it further and you could go and start a thread about derailing threads.

Gold.

Same with the “who’s mentally affected by this conflict” thread, but here we all are

that Russia should perhaps be removed

Really?!? Wow.

Some of the comments on here about military equipment would be more appropriate on the Christmas Airfix thread.

For a bit of balance and perspective, if you find yourself watching too much combat footage, go and have a watch of the movie “Come and See”, set in that region of the world in the 1940’s

It’s on YouTube.

ANY aircraft, no matter what speed is susceptible to shoulder launched IR missiles.

Military Jets pick up the launch of these missiles and fire off flares to try and mislead the IR seeker head.

The A10 is designed to take a direct hit and survive a missile. The pilot also sits in a Titanium tub to protect from small arms.

Just because it’s hot doesn’t mean the seeker head sees it as hot (ok so I left aircraft survivability and IR signatures 20years ago but.)

Seems that Russia declared victory a couple of days ago, then changed it’s mind.

1 “The resolution of the Ukraine question.” A mistakenly published Russian article gives us a chilling insight into the neo-imperialist thinking in Russia that drives Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine. A (long) THREAD.

— Thomas de Waal (@Tom_deWaal) February 28, 2022

24. The piece also reveals how far paranoia, grievance and aggression is embedded in state decision making—and is thus far immune to an alternative reality. Part of this is a willingness to endure hardship in pursuit of this Russian imperial project.

— Thomas de Waal (@Tom_deWaal) February 28, 2022

@kelvin, I guess those that might now be cottoning on to their deployment is not a good thing have pretty limited options, the Russians have a pretty old school attitude to ‘cowardice’. I imagine if they were to surrender, going home isn’t something they’d want to do unless there was a significant regime change either.

Oops…. Russian press prematurely uploaded a self congratulatory victory piece. Then swiftly deleted it, though not before some other outlets ran with it and the web archive was published. Includes the quote:

“Now this problem is gone – Ukraine has returned to Russia.”

Another insight into the absolute tosh the Russian people are being fed.

https://twitter.com/alistaircoleman/status/1498205169514856448

Edit: How do you embed tweets?

Edit2: beaten too it by @thols.  Bloke hangs his head in shame at his shite internet game….

have pretty limited options

They won’t surrender, obviously, but Russia will need committed people in this situation.

A longer slower campaign, where the Ukrainian people are prepared to tell soldiers to their faces day by day that they are not welcome, could seriously weaken the motivation and application of deployed soldiers who have been told they are liberating their allies.

@bikeandboats – this is an info/propaganda war. The Ukrainian government has every incentive to vastly inflate its reported success in the war.

Most, if not all western military aircraft in service have a defensive aids suite, even the Russians have them. How effective they are is a different issue.

ANY aircraft, no matter what speed is susceptible to shoulder launched IR missiles.

Military Jets pick up the launch of these missiles and fire off flares to try and mislead the IR seeker head.

The A10 is designed to take a direct hit and survive a missile. The pilot also sits in a Titanium tub to protect from small arms.

Even this UN translator is struggling with translating this BS

I shall not mention Golfs, or A10’s any more, you have my word. :)

@kelvin I meant on an individual level, they’re in pretty deep now. But yeah, would be interesting to be inside the orders group of the commanders on the ground, I imagine there’s some knowing looks going around, people saying something out loud is a different matter.

If the numbers of casualties and logistics issues are all accurate it would be natural that the commanders would be asking some seeking questions of Moscow on options. Could very well be being told ‘suck it up and get it done’ but in a more statesman like manner.