as soon as the land is enclosed the public are technically not allowed in.

To be fair when they fenced in parts of Hawley with a stock fence they put in stiles and cattle grids and they still allow public access.

Incidentally, latest issue of MOD’s Sanctuary magazine (page 62) has an article on public access to training land describing how they met with ramblers, horse riders and motorcyclists, but sadly not mountain bikers……

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/660061/Sanctuary_2017_Complete_-_lo-res.pdf

Cycling Uk (formerly CTC) are attendees at the annual MOD access forum meetings and are in dialogue over a number of access issues. I believe it wasn’t highlighted in sanctuary because name change and it’s fallout was still ongoing at the time.

those who have read the TAG report will also know they have met on this issue locally and are involved and supporting TAG

@theotherjohnv, that would work well. What day are you thinking? I can be on the ground as early as you like.
I need to be back by 2pm.

Not Monday, and hopefully will hear back re a job interview in London today or tomorrow for another day next week, but likely to still have 3 choices….. if u r flexible could base it on weather nearer the time?

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n26wtR-OFr8&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Well done Simon…… a hugely reasonable approach, presenting TAG and the area’s MTBers in a great light.

Come on DIO, come to the table and show some rationality too.

That is some very good work from TAG on the TV, let’s hope it gets some dialogue going.

The MOD have recently released an information film called Without a Trace – Safeguarding the Defence Estate which can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf9heIaRcBA

One quote which stood out was “To ensure our training spaces are available… we need to work together and respect the communities that we share the land with”

Somewhat staggered by that film, the content seems to be directly at odds with the current situation!

mark_d; Tues or Thurs look possible, maybe Friday

Thursday prob best if I’m honest.

Can be pretty much as early as you like – but can’t be arsed with lights so realistically 0830 ish. Could meet you at Deepcut, if you email me I’ll send you a GR and then have a coffee and a bacon sanger at the cafe afterwards?

took the dog for a walk around Porridge Pot earlier.

Very sad…..

Fence extends right from the corner by the clay pigeon range all the way across to the top of watership down, although it does leave the patch closest to the new school / small arms range.

Then it’s already in place from by the canal cottage up to the gate where the old sandbag fort used to be and then back down again – so the canal path opposite the towpath is also impassable. All they need to do is close off at the railway bridge corner and it’s all shut…. and although gates were open a number of the old heritage trails are already blocked by the fence, so Magic Garden, Watership Down are already RIP in their former guise.

Guess how many soldiers I saw while criss crossing the area for 2 hours this morning……

mark_d; Thursday am any good?

Has no one looked at the planning application ? Shows a phased building site to build houses over most of that side of the canal… In a few years it will almost all be gone 🙁

Where is Watership Down cut off from? Assume typos can still ride around the assault course perimeter and either fork left into Watership Down or follow the fence down and join up the bottom to follow to the link road. And can you still use Flow Rider to get to the canal and into TH? Been a few weeks since last over there and was planning one tomorrow but sounds like maybe it’s not worth it now. Sad state of affairs having to resort to Swinley for local rides instead.

nope, the fence runs ‘parallel but narrowing’ with the assault course fence up to the top of WD at which point it ties into it.

Flow rider? Don’t know that name?

You can still ride the area – gates are all still open (and needless to say in 2 hours of criss cross walking with the dog I didn’t see a single soldier) so don’t get put off yet, in fact ride it while you can!

Excellent, not changed much from a few weeks ago then! I can see more attention being paid to the small patch of MoD between Lightwater and Bagshot once this fencing is finished off. The jumps are being added to and noticed the old trail or two starting to be cut in. There’s a bit of potential there with the gradient on offer for some fun unofficial stuff.

Flow Rider… if you follow the link Road from Magic Garden down and round there’s a small trail the climbs in to the right the.then dives back down sharp right. That little run that drops through the gulley and ends up by the canal before the muddy drop in is Flow Rider.

The development website is here – can anyone (with more photoshop skills than me) overlay the fence line onto their plan below to see if there’s anything left?

From what I saw a few weeks ago, everything within central SANG should be safe as the fence runs along it’s perimeter. I’m over there tomorrow so I’ll be able to confirm how it runs along the SANG link and in the Southern SANG to the canal, that would mean trails around The Princess would be safe but as mentioned already, Watership Down and others into the Southern SANG like DB’s Magic Garden may be lost.

Unless I’m reading that map wrong, all the coloured mapped area is currently within the barracks that the MOD are vacating. The bottom right orange circle with the purple path coming out of it is the canal cottage marked with the arrow here.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=491117&y=156582&z=115&sv=491117,156582&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=513&ax=491117&ay=156582&lm=0

The building numbered 5 a bit to the north of it is the building that’s the other side of the fence to Watership Down currently, arrowed here:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=491019&y=156917&z=115&sv=491019,156917&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=513&ax=491019&ay=156917&lm=0

Watership down runs along the boundary of the coloured to white bit of the Mindenhurst map, the assult course is around the edge of the bit marked as the Minden plateau. All that we know and love as Porridgepot is in the white part of that map, much if it isn’t actually even on it because the RH edge of the Mindenhurst map only goes to about as far as the arrow on this map here (look at the shape of Brunswick road, the tarmac road between the two barrack entrances)

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=491464&y=156754&z=115&sv=491464,156754&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=513&ax=491464&ay=156754&lm=0

Fenceline plan

also FWIW the ‘central SANG’ – the only trail in there currently is basically the one that was in almost all Gorricks, wiggles down through some muddy berms coming out to a fireroad where you can climb to the assault course, or if you go straight over wiggles back up to come out by the short small arms range and funny brick sort of hut before coming back to the fireroad and up to the assault course. That central SANG is not a large area…….

Here’s my take on it, based on a visit yesterday. The fence goes all the way to the canal by the lock cottage now, so you can’t get along the path on the North side. Not sure what they are going to do to stop people getting in over the next two lock bridges along, but there’s currently no fence along there.
Rumours are (from a Deepcut village page) that the fence is now finished and the gates will be closed first week of December. For now, all gates still open and you can get in and out several places. Red blobs along the fence are gates.

Looking at that the lower part of the fence from the assault course is pretty much just using existing boundaries anyway where fencing already exists or there are natural ridges. The final run to the canal uses a gated access point IIRC. It’s the upset part at the Brunswick estate that’s rather contentious and causing the main issue of access. The Princess looks to be the only trail that’s avoided being cut off for now until the diggers roll in.

What I am interested in is what happens at the lock at the canal access bright by Gepemouth. There is existing fencing that could be extended and the obvious place is to shut off at the bridge but I think access to the lock gates may prevent that from being actioned. Could mean a point of entry in, or st very least gain access to the bomb holes.

If they close off the lock bridges (there’s the one by the railway bridge and another between there and the canal cottage) I’m planning a crowdfunded rigid raider that can be used to ferry cyclists over in the dead of night, cockleshell heroes style.

Beat them at their own game……

But don’t tell anyone.

Princess is outside the fence but is being wrecked by machines. I think that’s going. RIP.

Assault course to Watership has more wreckage and is cut off by the fence. RIP

Though you can detour via the nearest gate and get inside the fence, but end bit to get to the downhill of Watership is tricky to squeeze through. Can take a left steep down instead and immediate right up the bank to get to the start of it. Rest is okay and can run down to Magic Garden and that runs fine, just with a change at the end with the trail running inside the fence now.

Gates closed screw it all up however.

Shame. Deepcut all the way down that to the canal was my favourite trail in the whole area.

There is still a possibility that the fence is there as a temporary measure to cut off the training area from the development until it’s done. Though don’t get why all the way to the canal.

Princess?

Was there today, that fence is a right PITA ! 👿

theotherjonv – Member
Princess?

The top section from Deepcut running to the assault course / Watership. Though I generally call all that Watership.

So that went well.

Was supposed to meet Mark_d but he had transport issues and couldn’t make it. So I set off on my own (in the pissing rain) and within 1km had fallen off once and then (separate incident) got a stick in the mech that ripped the hanger off.

Fortunately a km of wiggly Deepcut singletrack means I was only about 500m from the car. So I avoided a LONG walk in the rain. Just a short one.

Got home and found my replacement hanger, set it up but wouldn’t work. Then spotted the mech was mashed as well, clutch bit broken off and cage bent. Had just fitted new jockeys too, so at least they can be saved.

So now need a new spare mech hanger, and I’ve used my parts box rear mech so need a new one of those as well to backfill. Under 1km of riding – that’ll be £55 please.

Still planning on trying again tomorrow though…….

Hope today’s ride went better Jon, certainly looks like better weather 😀

certainly better than yesterday’s…… but PP is properly messed up. The bits in and around the watertank are all intact but the fence cuts right across many trails so you can’t for example get to the top of watership down any more unless by hike-a-bike – and it seems deliberate. The fence runs parallel but narrowing to the fence around the assault course along the top of WSD, it could have run in at any point but seems to run in just the place so that you can’t ride the top path of that escarpment inside the new fence now.

And the logging on Princess and a few other areas – again doesn’t seem like commercial logging (which is now all over the south west corner of TH as well – all over Sleeping Squaddies, etc.) but just hacking a few bits down to cover the trail.

And then also on TH – P45 had some nasty branches across it; some just laid on the trail, some wedged across onto trees at 3-4 feet off the ground, and a few lifted and propped so the pointy ends were coming straight up towards you. I cleared it (first checking it wasn’t army closures but no soldiers in sight all day) but interested to see if it was ‘official’ or if we now have a TH stickman.

Sounds like it isn’t worth using porridge to get to TH now for me from Lightwater. Fireroad along the maltway and then down the hill into Deepcut and over the railway now.

I’ve seen braches crossed across the trail on P44 and entry into Tight Like A Tiger before due to soldiers having been there but never P45 as it’s not really where they would camp down. One to keep an eye on for sure. The bottom of Freeride Heaven is another to watch out for.

If the gates are open then straight down the fenceline and out at the canal bridge is ok, but I’ll also be scoping / resurrecting some old trails on Frith / golf course for the time when the gates get closed.

Yeah, it’s not usual they’d use P45. The portaloos and sometimes Landmarc van are parked by the entrance but it’s P44 and others they’re using. Not impossible though.

Frith – There’s a Gorrick / Brass Monkeys coming up, so hoping that will clear some trails. Riding through last week and I was going purely by memory riding on a deep bed of leaves with barely any sign of the trails.

I have fear that Frith will be fenced off though. Part of the plans is to establish or upgrade a path / RoW through Frith for housing access and I wouldn’t be surprised at all if that meant fencing everything either side of it. Otherwise I don’t see the point of them planning the path at all.

A lot of residents already access Frith from St Catherine’s Road and there is already an established RoW from there into Frith. I imagine they will link up from the Deepcut side leaving the land siting behind the Golf Course open to public access and the other side, where all the good trails are, closed off.

I think Between the M3 and A30 will be a more productive area to re-establish trails in the long term. If anyone fancies a look over there I’d be up for a general recce.

Resurrecting old trails sounds like a good idea – no issues with access on them I take?

If so, I’d be up for helping out.

Officially I expect access is as per all MoD areas. Unofficially I would say there’s a very high degree of tolerance due to the multitude of RoW though the area and its general lack of use for training. It has a small car park off the maltway so I don’t see access an issue right now. The Tank testing cicrcuit in Lightwater gets more usage and that is very minimal. They may tighten up but I think Deepcut and St Catherine’s Wood will keep them preoccupied for a few years yet.

Gorrick used to run a few races there in the early days so there are some remenants of those trails plus animal runs that have been purposed into useable trails. There are also some natural runs that could be opened up with a bit of clearing and sweeping of debris on the ground.

re Long Valley – some good news ie the DIO will continue to allow public access, what form this takes remains to be seen?

The Hart DC deputy leader made a impassioned statement during a full council mtg and it is minuted on their website, sorry cant get the link to work.

30th Nov mtg if you want to dig it out…..

From https://www.hart.gov.uk/sites/default/files/4_The_Council/Council_meetings/K_November/17%2011%2030%20Council%20draft%20minutes%20dp.pdf

Councillor Forster asked:

An FOI request has revealed Defence Infrastructure Organisation (DIO) intend to construct a 6 mile fence intending to enclose 900 acres of Long Valley. Section 2 of Aldershot and District Military Lands Byelaws (1976) states:

CL.56
…the public are permitted to use all parts of Military Land not specially enclosed…for the purposes of open air recreation at all times when the Military Lands are not being used for Military purposes… We are concerned about restricting public access so can Hart District Council urgently request to:

1. Meet formally with DIO and ascertain the level of impact on the physical and mental wellbeing of local residents and how this has been taken into consideration when planning such a fence; 2. Obtain, in writing, details of whether/when the Long Valley proposed area will remain open for public use/recreation 3. Include in this meeting representation from key stakeholders including the active local community of recreational users. (Cyclists, runners and walkers).

Councillor Neighbour read out Councillor Radley’s response:

I am sorry that I am not available in person to answer Cllr. Forster’s question as this is a matter that is very close to my heart. I have been asked to respond on behalf of the administration to this question as I have an existing relationship with the Defence Infrastructure Organisation (DIO) in respect to their management and use of Longmoor Camp for military training.

This past weekend I both rode my mountain bike and enjoyed an exhilarating walk with my wife and our dog Paddy through the area which would be effected. I should emphasise that when on my bike I always keep to the designated footpaths and avoid any training when I see it. I am aware of the disruption that inconsiderate riders cause by literally riding through encampments and even over soldiers in their fox holes!!! I am also very much conscious of the dangers posed by the Eelmoor HSTT (High Speed Test Track) and Long Valley off road driver training areas.

It is because of repeated ‘near misses’ by people trespassing on these areas that the army have been forced to take action. An early precaution having been the closure of the Bourley Road car park; a closure in response to which I first approached DIO.

Unfortunately, from the army’s perspective, to subdivide the area by fencing off just the High Speed Test Track would subdivide the area and result in an area too small for effective training. Therefore they have informed me upon enquiry this week that they intend to fence in all of the training land north of the Bourley Road, but not including the Tweseldown race course nor the adjacent Rushmoor SANG. There is no intention to fence off the area south of Bourley Road and hence as long as they are abiding by the by-laws people can still enjoy the staggering view from the top of Caesar’s Camp.

In regards to the area north of Bourley Road, it is the intention of the army to allow public access to this area when it is not being used for training.

For clarity, the MoD are well aware that as the proposed fence is 1.4m high, on their own land and not abutting the highway that it is permitted development and so do not need to obtain planning permission from Hart or Rushmoor.

CL.57
Hart open spaces team have reached out to DIO to start liaison meetings. The DIO are particularly keen to point out that the MoD have already given up over 700 acres of prime training estate to SANGS in recent years, I am sure that the promotion of these sites for alternative recreational use will be on the agenda. The important matter of how readily the promise of allowing public access when the training lands are not in use is granted will also be a subject for monitoring and on-going discussion. Once established such meetings may be able to offer opportunities for particular interest groups to raise and discuss their concerns.

On a personal note, I and my family have enjoyed the use of these lands for over 25 years and we will be as devastated as anyone else to see them fenced in and public access restricted. However, it has to be recognised that this is a consequence of the army consolidating their resources in this part of the country as they withdraw from a wider presence in Europe. Therefore I am very relieved to see that it is the army’s intent to continue to allow the public to enjoy this area whenever it is safe to do so.

Councillor Forster asked a supplementary question: Would the District Council support the registration of these areas as assets of community value, ensuring they are not fenced off and sold for future development – is that feasible?

In Councillor Radley’s absence, Councillor Neighbour would ask Councillor Radley to respond in writing.

TAG got an clarification on the last foi request (the one that found out about the bourley fencing) – as above there will be some kind of public access (we will put in another request to get the details), and the deepcut area will definitely be out of bounds to the public.

Any thoughts on a working party to resurrect some of the old trails?

At this point I expect it’s worth reminding everyone of the sensitivities around digging on Barossa and Poors Allotments (the bit between swinley and the A30). Iirc there was a race there a year or 2 ago which the army were OK with as long as the trails weren’t permanent, but then after the race people kept riding them and that didn’t go down well. Expect some on here were more involved so can fill in the details.

That was Natural England who got in a huff about Barossa. Though I’m still dubious about claims they had video of people uncovering trails at night and blame aimed at mountain bikes. Were the videos ever released? Would they really have had covert cameras to catch people?

It smelt more of providing an excuse to ban future events.

Ps I’d heard rumor of similar at caesars where an event was approved and then kicked off about digging and then events seem to get banned or cancelled.

and the deepcut area will definitely be out of bounds to the public.

🙁 RIP

Also frustrating as it serves my main route from canal to Deepcut and up the Maltway. Got a long detour now. Why couldn’t they leave the fenceline climb at least?