'The Greenest Government Ever' and wind turbines?

Remember this? ….

In Daves brief hug a husky campaign….

Well the latest policy commitment he’s planning is this….

Tories plan new attack on windfarms

‘The Greenest Government Ever’ is now proposing not only stopping new turbines being built but to begin dismantling existing ones they see as a “blot on the countryside”.

Dear God! You couldn’t make it up. Ploughing more resources into dismantling the turbines presently generating electricity? What planet are these people living on?! When it comes to pure undiluted cynicism, these lot make Blair and his evil minions look like wide-eyed innocents. 🙄

You couldn’t make it up

Nope – the satirists seem to have given up, as they just can’t beat it

Once you’ve stopped frothing read the article again, they aren’t proposing to pull any down, and are still going to allow another 3000 to be built. Lets be honest there is nothing green about generating electricity, simply less bad options, so a mixed energy policy makes the best sense.

Don’t see the point in pulling down existing ones but I do support a closer look at new ones. They are not the answer to our energy needs that people think they are and the only people gaining are those rich enough already to invest in the schemes.

Another attempt to out-UKIP UKIP. NIMBYism as official government policy.

Yay.

Wind turbines alone won’t solve it.

Until a government has the halls to spend our dwindling North Sea oil revenues on tidal/wave and, I’m afraid you have to be pragmatic, nuclear, this isn’t going to be fixed any time soon.

If any government since Kyoto was genuinely going to try and make a difference, all new homes would have been required to have solar panels, and public transport would have been invested in, including cycle infrastructure. They have all failed to make a concrete step like that.

They are all selfish spineless short termists who don’t care.

I do not understand this thought that wind turbines are green.
They have to be
manufactured
Transported
Have roads built through the countryside to there sites
Foundations laid
Maintained
Limited lifespan

Has a study been done to prove that they are greener than other forms of energy generation when all factors are looked at?

I do not understand this thought that wind turbines are green.
They have to be
manufactured
Transported
Have roads built through the countryside to there sites
Foundations laid
Maintained
Limited lifespan

Did you ever stop to consider whether environmental scientists might have already conducted studies that answer that.

Because if they had and had found windfarms polluted more than coal or gas, then we’d know about it.

Conventional power stations have to be:
“manufactured
Transported
Have roads built through the countryside to there sites
Foundations laid
Maintained
Limited lifespan”
And use fuel to produce energy

Simple 😉

Conventional power stations are more reliable and produce more energy than a wind farm.
Pollution caused versus energy made is the debate.

I bet no one independent has done an end to end study of wind turbines green credentials.

My former employer (a government department) introduced a hybrid only lease car policy for managers. I asked them to justify it by showing me that the production, transportation, use and disposal of such a vehicle was greener than my British built diesel that was averaging 55mph, and HR went into **** meltdown. Got a right stroppy reply from the HR director himself telling me how important it was to be seen to be reducing our emmissions. He never replied to my response that being seen to be doing something may be less effective than common sense experience.

Have roads built through the countryside to there sites

Not necessarily you can bring it in by boat to many, as they are often built near sea / river for cooling. Plus their footprint is nothing like an onshore wind farm.

onventional power stations have to be:
“manufactured
Transported
Have roads built through the countryside to there sites
Foundations laid
Maintained
Limited lifespan”
And use fuel to produce energy

Even when the wind isn’t blowing.

Dave, Nick and a STWer

As I recall, a wind turbine is a net energy producer after a year or so – that’s when the output surpasses the energy in manufacture and installation.

But I can’t remember the reference so that may not be correct.

I don’t know for solar, but thermal is never a net producer as you have to keep shovelling coal (other energy sources are available) into the thing.

Arguably you need to shovel wind into a wind turbine, but seeing as it was passing anyway…

PS. Anyone who thinks wind only or solar only or nuclear only etc is the answer doesn’t understand the question.

Energy payback times are a good question to ask about any renewable energy production. Less than 10% of production for the ones I’ve checked.

The whole British population gets to vote for its government, government policy though is dictated by those who fund the party. Check out the interests of those that donate for an insight into whom you are really voting for. In civilised countries political parties are funded by the state according to the votes they win and private funding is not allowed.

As I recall, a wind turbine is a me energy producer after a year or so – that’s when the output surpasses the energy in manufacture and installation.

Vestas (one of the worlds largest wind turbine manufacturers) claim that full energy payback is within 6 months. Vestas obviously have a vested interest so their claim shouldn’t be taken at face value. That said somewhere around the 6 to 12 months is widely accepted.

Onzadog – Member

…Don’t see the point in pulling down existing ones…

They’re full of really useful stuff like neodymium. So we’ll be pulling them down sooner or later – that stuff makes really good fridge magnets.

Even when the wind isn’t blowing.

I’d be keen to see what thought is being given to changing our pattern of use. One of the criticisms of windpower is that its not consistent in its supply. However if you look at the origins of the national grid and our patterns of consumption our use of electircity was shaped to suit the way it was generated and supplied. Thats why all the high street shops selling electrical goods were run by your local generating company – they had to market products like fridges and freezers that used power day and night to smooth out demand. Its one of the reasons why we have streetlights running all through the night too. So the ‘demand’ for a regular consistent supply is one thats been created and it wouldn’t be too hard to alter that demand

Theres no real reason why over a fairly short time frame we couldn’t change our lifestyles and belongings to accommodate the more erratic supply.

I bet no one independent has done an end to end study of wind turbines green credentials.

I wonder if anyone has ever done an end to end study of nuclear power. Oh no wait you can’t because we have to manage the waste for the next few hundred years and god knows how much that will cost.

Governments are only there to get voted in by marginals. So dont hold your breath waiting for sensible policys.

I bet no one independent has done an end to end study of wind turbines green credentials.

Somehow, I think they have. Not entirely connected but this was afrom a 30 second google search.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es204108n

MoreCashThanDash – Member
I bet no one independent has done an end to end study of wind turbines green credentials.

My former employer (a government department) introduced a hybrid only lease car policy for managers. I asked them to justify it by showing me that the production, transportation, use and disposal of such a vehicle was greener than my British built diesel that was averaging 55mph, and HR went into **** meltdown. Got a right stroppy reply from the HR director himself telling me how important it was to be seen to be reducing our emmissions. He never replied to my response that being seen to be doing something may be less effective than common sense experience.

but your diesel is pumping out very toxic fumes right where people live and breathe, towns and cities, and into your very own car-
I believe diesel fumes have just been bumped up the WHO carcinogen list too

kind of ironic during the current smog outbreak that has already seen a rise in hospital admissions for people with breathing difficulties

http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-03-27/one-in-eight-deaths-worldwide-linked-to-air-pollution

and tory objections to windfarms have nothing to do with their opinions on the environment and far more to do with keeping nimby UKipers happy and making sure nigel lawsons benefactors are well serviced

we have to manage the waste for the next few hundred years

more than a few 🙂

Theres an interesting debate surrounding a nuclear waste dump somewhere (Finland? I cant remember) which is – what language do you write the warning signs in. The half life of the material is longer than all human history to date. Longer than all the notions of country and nation we have, longer than the history of all modern spoken and written language. So theres no way to guess which language will persist for the working life of the dump or even who’s national boundary the dump will be in during that time.

‘Warning:Totes radiation. Lulz’

kind of ironic during the current smog outbreak

The UKIPs are drafting a campaign as we type to harness the raw thigh power cyclists , hooked up via turbo trainers, to drive the blades of the countries windfarms and blow the smog back to Europe and the Sahara. Back where it bloody well belongs

neodymium

Would that make even punchier guitar pickups than alnico 5 or would it stop the strings vibrating altogether?

Current production is 7A and consumption 1A, it’s true that if every house in France were producing the same surplus it would require a lot of pump storage capacity. There are lots of ways of managing demand, the Italians have a system for remote control of appliances, that along with intelligent metering does a lot to smooth demand. At present the only intelligence in our house is the occupants: on days when we don’t have enough solar hot water we avoid turning on the immersion heater during peak demand times.

Ploughing more resources into dismantling the turbines presently generating electricity?

What about the rest of them 😆

kind of ironic during the current smog outbreak that has already seen a rise in hospital admissions for people with breathing difficulties

That ‘smog’, is predominantly Saharan dust being brought up on southerly winds, combined with a certain amount of local pollution due to the still air in the current high pressure situation, and a fair amount of continental industrial pollution.
Certainly the white coating I’m seeing all over cars is natural, not man-made, but it’s a respiratory problem for many.
Perhaps a Government quango should be formed to try to control it…

wind farms cleaner and greener than nuclear, coal fired power stations, gas fired power stations. never heard of anyone been killed in a wind farm either or even getting blown over by the draught..

not a perfect solution but far preferable to the alternatives.. build em out at sea or in lancashire and nobody will care..

Living 9° further south we get a lot more Saharan dust, I can assure you it’s orange not white. It even makes the snow look orange when we get southerly winds in winter. There is never a perceptible haze or smog during these periods and I live in an area that is pretty much air pollution free.

Given our energy requirements over the next decades (century?), even with improved efficiency, it appears to me that nuclear is the only way of meeting short to medium term demand.

count zero the pollution in London at least has reached levels 7 or 8 several times already this year and that has nothing to do with saharan dust its predominantly caused by diesel exhuast from hgvs, taxis and buses in particular
NO2 levels have been very high and thats unrelated to saharan dust

lots of info here
https://twitter.com/CleanAirLondon

its already shaping up to be a record breaking year for air pollution in the UK

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/tourists-attractions-in-london-harbour-illegal-levels-of-air-pollution-9147444.html

Only if demand remains at current levels. I suggest everyone looks at every appliance in their house and compare it with the most energy efficient model currently on the market. I did that ten years ago and have now replaced most of them. The result is that despite going from gas water heating to solar/electricity our electricity consumption hasn’t increased.

LEDs to replace every halogen bulb
A 2200W oven instead of 3500W that heats up faster
A fridge that consumes a third less (sorry I’ve forgotten the Kws per year).
A sat box that no longer heats the room.

Edit: a bonus is that the house is cooler in Summer.
A more efficient hob

Until a government has the halls to spend our dwindling North Sea oil revenues on tidal/wave and, I’m afraid you have to be pragmatic, nuclear, this isn’t going to be fixed any time soon.

Probably all true. Doesn’t mean that we don’t also need MORE wind generation (on shore as well as off) and more energy storage, probably more hydro storage.

Tidal/wave energy seem to be the big win that’s being prevented by people resistant to change. Yes, yes, habitat for birds etc… sod it… harness that power ASAP.

The only reason for building wind farms is because it is an easy way for the government to meet its emission targets.

Turning up at an energy summit an announcing they can meet the 20% (or some other figure plucked from the sky) reduction every one (apart from the US & China)have voted for by building ‘X’ amount of wind turbines means they can sit back and enjoy the facilities of the 5 star resort they have just flown into along with hundreds of other government ministers, hangers on and journos.

The above may not be 100% accurate, but personally I don’t think it is far from the truth.

Wind farms cost a fortune and have to have a conventional power station ticking over 24/7 to take up the slack.

Edukator – Troll

Would that make even punchier guitar pickups than alnico 5 or would it stop the strings vibrating altogether?

Neodymium pickups do exist apparently “the fully optimized Q2.0 pickups offer a distinctive broadband sound quality loaded with high order harmonics along with a wide dynamic range”. How have we lived without this? I’m going to pull down a wind turbine and steal the magnets.

Euan Mearns blogs on energy.

The Green effort so far in the UK has resulted in wind contributing about 2.3%, solar 0.15%* and biofuels 0.16% of all the energy we use (Figure 7). All the economic pain and landscape degradation inflicted so far is making a negligible impact on the total energy budget. To make any significant impact the current levels of deployment would need to be multiplied 10 to 20 fold. Do any of our main stream political parties really want to inflict this on Britain?

Brave Green World and the Cost of Electricity

All the economic pain and landscape degradation

what a load of bobbins

Not sure what the point is of that quote from Euan Mearns….

We need lots more wind farms if wind is to contribute anything significant to our generation mix. Arguing that we need lots more wind farms isn’t a useful argument against building lots more wind farms.

Ploughing more resources into dismantling the turbines presently generating electricity?
What about the rest of them

I know the Daily Wail, an impartial source of information on this subject, love to howl how wind turbines only work 0.5% of the time, but heres the view from the front of my house…

Nice innit? So I these these buggers every morning when I get up. And I can tell you, in all honesty, that you can count on one hand the days in a year when they aren’t whizzing round. And despite the fact that some people round our way have up to 8 fingers on each webbed extremity, thats still not many 😀 They were still yesterday. Its blowing the usual gale up there again today

irc – Member

The Green effort so far in the UK has resulted in wind contributing about 2.3%, solar 0.15%* and biofuels 0.16% of all the energy we use (Figure 7). All the economic pain and landscape degradation inflicted so far is making a negligible impact on the total energy budget.

Presumably he says the same about nuclear? If renewables need to increase 10-fold to be worthwhile then nuclear still needs to increase 5-fold. Rverything that’s not carbon based is worthless by his logic.

Meanwhile in Scotland