STATO – Member

It doesnt encourage you, its available for you. If you want to go left you can use it, if you want to go straight move across into the correct lane.

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn’t one road warrior, it’s a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

Lorry drive has already seen more than one cyclist appear in front of him from the left hand side, and has taken no action to allow for the fact that there may be more coming from a known blind-spot on his vehicle – hardly qualifies as good driving and whether or not he may be theoretically “in the right” he would have contributed to a potential death scenario.

Both of them need to have a long hard think.

If you start from this assumption there is no point ever at which the driver (not limited to this video) can ever assume noone is going to be passing on the inside

You have to assume that given all the options open to the cyclist to not have an accident and the relative damage they receive vs a HGV that they are not going to try and force a HGV off the road…

It seems to me the cyclist expected the HGV to make room… and hadn’t even considered the HGV may have nowhere to go or has even seen him.

That’s not top say the driver didn’t learn something but that’s a bit like saying a train driver has to expect someone to throw themselves under their train at every station.

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn’t one road warrior, it’s a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

Shall we also,
Change the speed limit
Make red lights optional
Allow the use of phones for car drivers and cyclists
Etc

?

After all, if lots of people are doing it already, it must be OK…..

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn’t one road warrior, it’s a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

But that’s not the point. There’s a massive arrow saying “OI, TURN LEFT HERE” and whether they WISH it was something else is besides the point, people don’t get to make up road rules to suit themselves. It’s like a mate of mine who got done for speeding at 2am on a mostly empty motorway, he felt aggrieved because he wasn’t causing any danger (true) and thought the usual rules should not apply (false).

If people want to have a bike line or advanced stop added, there’s a mechanism to do that, you can’t just make it up as you go along and expect other road users to know and respect that.

I’ve already said that the junction is a shit-fest but whenever I’ve driven or ridden there I’m VERY aware of this and behave accordingly. At no point would I put the blinders on and get my head down and go for it.

So many people are using it wrongly that I think it asks reasonable questions about the road design. This isn’t one road warrior, it’s a whole lot of normal everyday cyclists all doing the same, wrong thing

Indeed. I get the impression that normally cyclists congregate there and then either sprint to get ahead of the traffic or filter in with the cars. Having an HGV there only leaves the option to sprint ahead or wait to filter in behind which is what seems to be happening.

The guy who got hit seemed to think he’d done enough to be visible to the HGV. He was ahead but probably not visible.

The HGV seemed to accelerate a lot as it went through the pinch point. You can see the relative speeds change dramatically just before the collision.

The driver is not completely innocent but the main problem is the junction design which is almost inviting this kind of thing.

Lorry drive has already seen more than one cyclist appear in front of him from the left hand side, and has taken no action to allow for the fact that there may be more coming from a known blind-spot on his vehicle – hardly qualifies as good driving and whether or not he may be theoretically “in the right” he would have contributed to a potential death scenario.
Both of them need to have a long hard think.

Lorry saw many go infront of him, and saw some on his inside further back (the camera bike). He was moving slowly to the curb, trying to accelerate and change gears. He had a mirror that might have let him see the cyclist but they are tiny, only really there for when a driver is stationary, thats why he saw the cyclist when he hit him, he appeared in that mirror. (one out the front)

Like this one.

I think the HGV accelerated a lot quicker than I would normally expect. Possibly everyone expected to be half way down the road before he’d gotten above 10 mph. Certainly the cyclist who got hit looked like he thought he’d made a breakaway before he was hit from behind.

if there’s one or two cyclists at the junction then playing the odds and expecting to get away sharpish is understandable, still not smart mind, but understandable. But as soon as there’s half a dozen people of mixed ability at the stop line then getting away cleanly and quickly is just a lottery, I don’t think you can rely on it.

My sympathies in this instance are with the truck driver, cyclists should have either been considerably in front of the truck and visible to the driver or tucked in the row of traffic behind. The only person that seemed to see there was a problem in the making was the female cyclist that appears to ease up to let the truck get away.

If you think they deserve therefore to die, which is what the comments regarding Darwin are saying, you are a bit of a ****, aren’t you?

I didn’t say he deserved to die at all.

No need to get personal.

Shall we also,
Change the speed limit
Make red lights optional
Allow the use of phones for car drivers and cyclists
Etc

?

After all, if lots of people are doing it already, it must be OK…..
You’re clearly missing my point, if not others. You shouldn’t be relying on above average skills/judgement/experience to avoid accidents. We all know that the above are illegal, people still ignore the law, and accidents happen, however things like high grip surfaces, safety regulations for cars, and general road design are used to reduce the associated danger. Other countries have done similar for cyclists so that even children can cycle around without undue danger, why haven’t we? And why aren’t we?

but the main problem is the junction design which is almost inviting this kind of thing.

It’s not. It’s a left only lane. The problem is the cyclists ignoring that in a rush to get ahead.

It’s not. It’s a left only lane. The problem is the cyclists ignoring that in a rush to get ahead.

Cyclists generally ride on the left. It’s where you naturally get drawn. Watching the video I wouldn’t have noticed the arrow until I was well past the beginning of the line of cars.

Given they almost certainly do the same route every day, ignorance is no defence.

Cyclists generally ride on the left. It’s where you naturally get drawn. Watching the video I wouldn’t have noticed the arrow until I was well past the beginning of the line of cars.

If you were driving would you try and jump a truck into a narrowing space, or would you slow and join the queue before the lights? or would you just turn left.

And as above, they will all go that way every day and will be on the bike to avoid traffic, so wont join it.

Cyclists generally ride on the left. It’s where you naturally get drawn. Watching the video I wouldn’t have noticed the arrow until I was well past the beginning of the line of cars.

Whilst I know not everyone drives, anyone who DOES drive usually knows that empty-lane on a busy road means something is wrong (roadworks, compulsory turn etc).

Given they almost certainly do the same route every day, ignorance is no defence.

They do the same route every day and presumably do the same thing every day. Everyone’s gotten so used to it (including drivers) that’s it’s just become the accepted way of doing it. It’s only when someone who doesn’t know the junction comes along that things get messy.

The fact that people’s nature has taken over suggests that the design is completely wrong.

If you were driving would you try and jump a truck into a narrowing space, or would you slow and join the queue before the lights? or would you just turn left.

And as above, they will all go that way every day and will be on the bike to avoid traffic, so wont join it.

Whilst I know not everyone drives, anyone who DOES drive usually knows that empty-lane on a busy road means something is wrong (roadworks, compulsory turn etc).

Are you guys saying you never filter? If you’re going to wait in line with cars then why even bother cycling, why not just drive?

That left lane doesn’t look like a full width lane to me anyway. Wouldn’t a better solution be have a proper left filter lane with plenty of markings leading up to it and a single lane going straight ahead?

CaptainFlashheart – Member
Given they almost certainly do the same route every day, ignorance is no defence.

Again, what’s your solution then?
Given that there’s plenty of publicity about the dangers of doing this sort of thing, what would you do, instead of designing the road in such a way that the majority of cyclists don’t end up doing something potentially dangerous.

Indeed. I get the impression that normally cyclists congregate there and then either sprint to get ahead of the traffic or filter in with the cars. Having an HGV there only leaves the option to sprint ahead or wait to filter in behind which is what seems to be happening.

You are missing the option TURN LEFT ….

If I’d ended up in this position in a car that is almost certainly what I’d do. At the front on a bike perhaps not… 10 people back on a bike GET OFF and stand on the pavement..

Yes it’s inconvenient… yes I’ll get home 5 mins later… BUT my chance of getting home at all is MUCH BETTER

what would you do,

email TfL & the Mayor and inform them of your concerns and attach the video, requesting a review of the junction / lanes / road lay out – that’s the most constructive thing i can think of – but i’m not local to London, so over to you.

Looking at the video again there’s no right turn on that road. So you have two lanes going into one within meters of the junction and a left filter lane which doesn’t look big enough to fit a car in.

That is a ridiculous set up.

Are you guys saying you never filter? If you’re going to wait in line with cars then why even bother cycling, why not just drive?

and THATS the reason some people are getting hurt. ‘What i cant go faster by bike? better run some red lights then or i may as well drive…’

wrong attitude.

Yes ill filter, but if im approaching lights ill not filter all the way to the front unless i know i can get into the ASL before it changes. If i cant ill join the queue when i think it might change to green. That way im going thought the light as traffic, which is exactly what an ASL is designed to let you do, get in front of a car and take the lane. Sitting on the left, with your foot on the curb as so many MAMILS do, is wrong (unless there is a marked cycle lane through the junction).

Are you guys saying you never filter? If you’re going to wait in line with cars then why even bother cycling, why not just drive?

I do filter but I make sure I don’t have to out-sprint a car/bus/lorry/motorbike/mobility scooter in order to avoid being knocked off. If I can’t safely get in front of something that is a danger, I don’t do it because I value my skin more than I value 10 seconds. If there’s an advanced stop and in the unlikely occasion that a bus or driver hasn’t stopped in it, I take my place providing the driver behind me knows I’m there.

That left lane doesn’t look like a full width lane to me anyway. Wouldn’t a better solution be have a proper left filter lane with plenty of markings leading up to it and a single lane going straight ahead?

It doesn’t matter what a “better solution” is, we’re discussing what the situation is today (or specifically a month ago). We all know that it’s a terrible junction, but that makes the riders dumber, not smarter

atlaz – Member

But that’s not the point. There’s a massive arrow saying “OI, TURN LEFT HERE” and whether they WISH it was something else is besides the point, people don’t get to make up road rules to suit themselves.

I think that’s exactly the point- when you get significant numbers of normal people doing something wrong, it’s not generally because they’re making it up to suit themselves, it’s because they’ve blundered into doing it wrong. That could be something as simple as the traffic tailing back to before where the split in the road’s marked, so you end up in the wrong lane with solid traffic on the right.

Or it could be more complex affecting the “feel” of the road- when I first watched the vid I wasn’t looking at road signs and it did feel like the truck came across.

The whole thing is ridiculous. I think that the cameraman was being a moron cycling up that lorry, let alone all the people waiting at the lights (who could have been there before the lorry got there conceivably).

They should never have been there, either through better road design or just plain hanging back.

you end up in the wrong lane with solid traffic on the right.

In a car in this situation would you:

a) race the lorry and hope you could get in front of him with room enough not to cause a crash
b) whack on the indicator and wait until it was safe

I bet b.

Only 2 points to make.

1. Cyclists in the wrong, definite “herd” mentality there.
2. Wankpuffin. 😆 😆 😆

either through better road design or just plain hanging back.

The former takes time, the latter is already available.

Sadly common sense isn’t all that common.

In a car in this situation would you:

a) race the lorry and hope you could get in front of him with room enough not to cause a crash
b) whack on the indicator and wait until it was safe

I bet b.

Or
c) turn left anyway and find a way to turn around safely

where is this exactly?

turn left anyway

Much nicer views along the King’s Road, too.

I think that’s exactly the point- when you get significant numbers of normal people doing something wrong, it’s not generally because they’re making it up to suit themselves, it’s because they’ve blundered into doing it wrong.

Or because of Herd mentality…

The former takes time, the latter is already available.

Sadly common sense isn’t all that common.

For sure. In 7 years cycling in London I’ve definitely done a few stupid things in the heat of the moment. I just don’t get how they don’t have a sense of self preservation though. That lorry is huge and would definitely make me think twice, and I’d like to think that I’m rapid enough to accelerate out of sticky situations.

They cycled up it so calmly though. So much time to think ‘maaaaybe this isn’t the brightest idea’.

They cycled up it so calmly though. So much time to think ‘maaaaybe this isn’t the brightest idea’.

And they’ll do it all again the next day regardless. Sadly.

Are you guys saying you never filter? If you’re going to wait in line with cars then why even bother cycling, why not just drive?

I don’t cycle to work because it’s quicker than taking the car, I do it for many reasons, speed of journey isn’t one of them.

But of course I filter, but only when it’s safe and appropriate to do so. If for example there’s a queue of 3 cars then I just take the lane and join the queue – what’s the point in moving to the asl in that situation.

I see people on my commute who are conditioned to move up the side of traffic to get to the asl then wobble off at a snails pace or get caught out as the traffic moves off.

In longer queues I’ll filter either to the front or slot into s space, but I know the sequence of the traffic lights on my regular commuting route so know when it’s safe to filter and when it’s not.

At no point would I sit alongside an HGV or any other vehicle for that matter – I take the lane either in the queue or at the ASL.

At no point would I sit alongside an HGV or any other vehicle for that matter

I don’t even do that in a car. The same goes for roundabouts … I see both drivers and cyclists trying to save a few seconds when its obvious the bus/HGV will need the space and end up then pulling back for when they finally realise they don’t have room and hit the brakes.

I’m not sure if it’s possible to do a balanced comment which those entrenched on either side won’t disagree with, but I’m going to try…

Yes the cyclist was wrong to do that and an idiot – for a start going straight on from a left turn lane is almost certainly breaking the law (on the “careless cycling” level at least). At some point self-preservation needs to kick in. Yes as a soft squidgy object you do have responsibility for your own safety and doing what you can to ensure that.

BUT:

as the driver of a huge, fast moving, heavy object you also have responsibility for avoiding hitting the soft squidgy objects you’re sharing the road with even if they’ve done something wrong. The penalty for the mistake the cyclist makes shouldn’t be death. Ultimately it’s the drivers of the big, heavy, fast moving objects which are introducing the danger to the roads – without them then almost everything cyclists do would be safe. The cyclist was in front of the truck and the truck drove into him. Given all the other cyclists the truck driver must have seen, it should have been obvious to the driver that there might be more – and for those who’ve thrown out this strawman, no, he didn’t need to reverse or stop for an infinite amount of time, because despite the blind spot he has mirrors which enable him to see cyclists coming past, all he had to do was slow down enough to let them all go which he can see using his mirrors. It’s been mentioned that the cyclists had plenty of time to ponder the situation whilst at the lights – well so did the driver, he should have been well aware there were cyclists there. So whilst I don’t agree with Edu, I also don’t agree that the driver was blameless – as the operator of a lethal weapon he does have a higher level responsibility to avoid mowing down even those soft squidgy objects who have done something wrong (the collision rules at sea got mentioned earlier – fundamentally if a collision occurs then both parties are at fault under those).

Ultimately though, if the problem is the blind spot on the lorry (which seems to be a fundamental issue), then the most significant problem which needs addressing is that. On a higher level what needs addressing is the attitude that it’s OK to have vehicles on roads driving into spaces the drivers can’t see.

The rider with the camera goes up the inside of the HGV and sits there in it’s blind spot, IN LONDON. How **** stupid do you need to be to do that. They are ‘smart’ enough to use a camera but not smart enough to not want to die. It’s difficult to imagine something where you don’t know exactly what you are meant to not do and they go and do it. If only there was a way of keeping stupid off the streets but clearly there isn’t 🙁

edit: and I largely agree with you aracer except that the cycling wasn’t really in front of the truck. He sat in exactly the worst possible spot from the driver’s point of view. The cyclist had a 100% chance of avoiding that accident. The driver had a reasonable chance if he had been able to see him but at that spot it wasn’t clear that he had. The junction could have been better designed to prevent the cyclist(s) making what was clearly a dangerous move

Absolutely barmy. Feel bad for the driver, who’s getting out of his cab not knowing whether he’s just killed someone. Hopefully the rider will have the chance to reflect on his actions once he’s got his shorts into the wash.

I know that junction pretty well, though, and IIRC it’s hairy enough in a car sometimes.

The dangerous cycling by the riders in that video is the result of the same sort of attitudes and behaviours as car drivers using mobile phones while driving. The problem is that once some people start doing it and ‘getting away with it’, others see it and copy them and it becomes normalised.

It’s probably difficult to go against the herd when cycling regularly in somewhere like London and be the odd guy out who sticks to the Highway Code and stays behind that truck when every other cyclist is riding up to the junction in the filter lane.

Again as with mobile phone using, once that sort of dangerous behaviour has acquired sufficient critical mass to become commonplace, it’s a lot harder to reverse things and stop it happening. It would probably take a lot of police resources now to influence this, i.e. police regularly stopping groups of cyclists doing that and getting it through their thick skulls that they must not do it, whether by explanation or by giving them the sort of bollocking that will discourage them from doing it again.

Just how bad things are, is shown by the number of cyclists who think the rider was in the right and that it was the truck driver’s fault: they’ve all become so habituated to their crap roadcraft that many are probably incapable of realising when they have made a mistake and correcting their behaviour.

Put simply, these people do not know how to ride their bikes safely, and they live in their own little bubbles whether commuting in London or riding in a sportive.

Are you guys saying you never filter? If you’re going to wait in line with cars then why even bother cycling, why not just drive?

Honest answer, yes but never ever do it to HGV’s and buses or any other vehicle of that size. My self preservation instinct is very strong.

Agree with aracers comment above, but the situation could also have been avoided by the cyclists not wilfully using the wrong lane.