The Panama Papers.

Who bought that Corbett portrait that was in the classifieds a few years back, has the value note increased, would it be a wise investment to move it offshore?

Cameron knows he looks bad, every paper has it on their front page after he used politician speak to try and deny it earlier in the week, hes made their job even easier, of course we all know it’s part of the right wing civil war over the EU, even Bojo tried to slag the guardian when questioned on Tuesday in a half arsed defense of Dave, despite that particular allegation surfacing in the Telegraph.

With friends like these…

PS the real issue here is where all the dirty money domiciled in Panama or BVI comes from, and whether crimes were committed in accruing it. Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund which the PM had a minor stake in, when the real story is the embezzlement of BILLIONS by kleptocrats across the globe.

You forgot the bit about possible links to Embezzlement and Asset stripping of a successful company as a means of consolidating control of the Arms trade by a shadowy international cabal.

Seriously, just read this (non fiction) book, it’s only a couple of quid:

In the Public Interest: A Devastating Account of the Thatcher Government’s Involvement in the Covert Arms Trade

Bear in mind it details the same methods and players (BAE and Midland Bank (later HSBC)) as mentioned in relation to the Carroll Trust, which is alleged to have involved the Cameron Family’s Blairmore Holdings:

Further sources have revealed that Gerald Carroll’s Farnborough Aerospace Aerospace Centre in Hampshire England was “targeted” by BAE Systems and HSBC International within the framework of a systematic break-up embezzlement operation

Fair bit about Arms to Iraq and Al-Yamamah in there too… [/quote]

Bear in mind also that Cameron has some very dodgy links to Astra Holdings, which was also targeted in such a manner, as detailed extensively in the book I’ve linked to.

@bainbridge…*no one knows what the hell their talking about”.. 😀 …

Chambers has it. I think thats the issue here. If Dave just said ‘ok guv. Its a fair cop guv! It was me dad wot dunnit’ then it’d blow over.

But he didn’t. For a PR bloke he’s handled it spectacularly badly. Telling everyone it was a ‘private matter’ just looked aloof and arrogant. As if he was saying “how dare you question me?!”

He just left himself looking evasive and leaves everyone with the distinct impression that there’s more stuff he’s hiding. George Osbourne has been equally vague about his families tax affairs when asked too

However that doesn’t mean that his actions (or indeed his father’s actions) have been anything other than entirely appropriate.

Not even Dave agrees with you hence why he tried to hide it and why he sold them before he became PM.

It’s only ‘toxic’ because as per usual no-one understands what the hell they are talking about.

Except you of course eh – even though Dave himself dumped ot because he could se
Its about trust and double standards. Dave knows this hence why he was “evasive” this week and why he dumped them before becoming PM.
I am amazed you need this explaining to you, again, seeing we dont understand it.
The underlying issue is how the public will perceive it – badly clearly- though if course that is because they are stupid and dont get it- I assume a PR strategy Dave wont be embarking on.

Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund which the PM had a minor stake in,

The little people, who dont avoid tax, view this as immoral even if it is legal[ see also Google, Starbucks, etc] why have you had to ask this ?
Why do you think the PM did not try this approach?

I love the fact that people seem to think we should believe the facts (as we know them today)…after the way this has played out (initial leaks followed by four different statements) …you can hardly call Dave Cameron a standup honest guy can you…

Cameron’s greatest folly? Being afraid/ashamed of his past. Rich or poor, that is a sad state of affairs. You are what you are, and you do the best with the hand that you are dealt with.

But “poor” old Dave is tormented by the fact that he/his family is well off. So what? Denying the same education to your kids. What’s the point?

But he seems lost in this social/political wilderness where it’s almost impossible to know what he stands for. Like most people he is inconsistent (hypocritical) in his approach to tax avoidance largely driven by his phobia of the rich tag.

He should have been straight from the past. Yes my old man was rich, yes BH was registered in Panama, yes the old man once sold some painting for a shit load of money, yes his income helped fund my excellent education etc. So far not illegal….

A strange bloke all in all. But what do they say about all political careers. At least he promised that his wouldn’t be undone by Europe!!!

Couldn’t agree more THM. I really don’t get why he needs to indulge in his tragically unconvincing ‘Man of the People’ routine (what football team do we support this week then Dave? Villa? West Ham? Same colours. I suppose its easy to get confused)

You’re an uber-privilidged posh boy. Everyone knows you are. Spare us the act! Its fooling no-one. Least of all yourself.

Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund

It’s only bog standard for the very wealthy, to allow them to pay much less tax than much less wealthy people.

JY – so we agree it’s nothing more than a PR issue and our time/opprobrium is better spent elsewhere.

the real story is the embezzlement of BILLIONS by kleptocrats across the globe.

For me its this and UK is the big cheese in making it happen.

@thm – be careful in your quick excuses…you’re straying dangerously close to social theoires that believe people are the result of their surroundings and therefore cannot be held truly accountable for their actions….that is the opposite of the Tory ideology of individualisation…unless of course I got you wrong and actually you are a Corbyn supporter? 😀

The Problem Dave also has is what the Panama fund says about the company you keep. It says daddy was happy using the same lawyers and bankers who were at the same time happily laundering money for drug cartels and blood-stained dictators

@Grum – I’m going to put my head above the parapet here because I’m not a tax expert, but you are entirely wrong in your statement. As said above, Cameron has paid the same tax as he would have if the fund didn’t exist and he had directly invested in shares.

I will go further and say that there is a chance that even you have an indirect investment in an Irish UCITS via a pension scheme.

You are what you are, and you do the best with the hand that you are dealt with.

Dave is not ashamed of it he just knows it wont help his “all in it together ” message he spins to the masses. In this case it wont help him look like a the ferocious tiger taking on the tax avoidrrs – not that he was that was, as the EU letter shows, nothing but PR spin and BS.
Essentially no politician whatever hue, is going to make a massive thing about the part of them that makes them least appealing to the electorate
Its not like Gideon wears his inheritance on his sleeve either but we all know his background to. Same reason we dont really want to be ruled by our social netters anymore so they do the man of the people shtick. In both their cases it is clearly BS but fools some of the electorate.

Its way OTT to try and suggest that him playing to the masses is him “ashamed”

Here is an article by Graham Aaronson QC, who is a very eminent QC, who chaired the Tax Law Rewrite Committee (appointed by Labour) and was involved in putting forward the GAAR. He is a serious expert and has been at the top of the tree for a very long time.

His conclusion in the article was that there was no tax avoidance.

Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund

Because the Prime Minister concealed it.

Why on earth is everyone bleating on about a perfectly legal bog standard fund

How does everyone know it’s all perfectly legal?

Who told you that?

How does everyone know it’s all perfectly legal?

It’s highly unlikely to be illegal. There’s a question around whether it’s avoidance, which I would leave to the experts. The more interesting point is why the Prime Minister felt the need to conceal it.

It’s highly unlikely to be illegal.

How do you know that?

What has the money been invested in?

Handy thing this offshore secrecy…

JHJ there’s probably a key facts doc showing the major investments given its a UCITs. Just search on google with the fund name.

JY – so we agree it’s nothing more than a PR issue and our time/opprobrium is better spent elsewhere

Half right, it was a PR cock up, but London and our tax havens dependencies are the trusted global brand in money laundering, millions around the globe are robbed through evasion and the problem is that our own PM is perceived to be in it up to his nuts himself.

This proposal was put to the EU parliament exactly a year ago

Tory and UKIP MEPs voted (in line with their parties) against it

the European Parliament proposed concrete measures to tackle immoral tax practices, including making companies report where they make their profits and where they pay their taxes. It also proposed an agreed Europe-wide definition of tax havens that would allow tax dodgers to be named and shamed.

Because the Prime Minister concealed it

Or no requirement to declare at the time as it was below the threshold

I’m looking forward to the explanation of why the Guardian avoiding tax on the sale of Autotrader was OK but paying tax on the proceeds of an offshore trust isn’t

Or no requirement to declare at the time as it was below the threshold

I don’t recall saying that he was required to declare it. I do recall him having quite a lot to say about offshore funds, and I do recall him being asked several times about whether he had financially benefitted from such funds.

I’m looking forward to the explanation of why the Guardian avoiding tax on the sale of Autotrader was OK but paying tax on the proceeds of an offshore trust isn’t

Well sure, but I’m kind of glad that its journalists are allowed to pursue this kind of investigation, regardless of the tax affairs of their parent company.

JHJ there’s probably a key facts doc

Indeed there is… thanks for that, good info~ find all sorts of handy stuff on Cryptome

At a quick glance, it confirms many of the links suggested in relation to the Carroll Trust have a factual basis.

Interesting how closely linked Blairmore Holdings is to SG Hambros Bahamas:

Brent Haines
. Mr Haines is Senior Manager, Fiduciary and Client Services of SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited.
James Hoar
. Mr Hoar is Director, Marketing for SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited,
Betty Roberts
. Mrs Roberts was until August 2004 Managing Director of SG Hambros Bank &
Trust (Bahamas) Limited.

ADMINISTRATOR

The Fund has retained SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited as Administrator.

SG Hambros, part of SG Private Banking, is a private bank providing a comprehensive wealth management service. The SG Hambros Group employs more than 400 people and manages over £5 billion of assets from its offices in the UK, Guernsey, Jersey, Gibraltar and The Bahamas.

BANKER & CUSTODIAN

The Fund has retained SG Hambros Bank & Trust (Bahamas) Limited as Banker & Custodian.

The Banker & Custodian will receive all subscription monies, transfer all redemption proceeds, maintain the Fund’s bank accounts and pay from the Fund’s accounts such bills, statements, taxes, calls or liabilities in respect of the securities in the Fund, custodian fees or other obligations of the Directors in respect of the Fund.

Also worth noting the ties to Coutts Bank:

As well as the London, Jersey, Guernsey and Gibraltar operations, a subsidiary of Coutts Bank in the Bahamas also became part of the SG Hambros Group.

Wonder if we can find more in relation to this aspect:

The Carroll Foundation Trust files are held within a complete lockdown at the FBI Washington DC field office and the Metropolitan Police Scotland Yard London under the supervision of the Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe who has an intimate knowledge of this case which stretches the globe.

Why is that interesting?

I’m looking forward to the explanation of why the Guardian avoiding tax on the sale of Autotrader was OK but paying tax on the proceeds of an offshore trust isn’t

Is it because the Guardian doesn’t legislate or enforce tax law?

No its because everyone loves a bit of whataboutery and when deflecting from our dear right wing leader it best to have a pop at a weak left wing target as it means folk start discussing that rather than Dave

Its been a reasonably successful strategy even if most of the replies were just mockery of the “point”

big_n_daft – Member
Because the Prime Minister concealed it
Or no requirement to declare at the time as it was below the threshold

This ^^

Crazy thread..

Crazy thread

It’s not the thread though is it?, is the front page of every paper today

It’s blown up because he tried to cover it up, and the Eurosceptics have seized on this and are hammering him for it

Why are folk surprised that people dont like to think our PM is a bit of wheeler dealer tax dodger?

He was political savvy enough to make sure he was not and politically savvy enough to realise why it would create a shit storm if/when it came out.
He was not politically savvy enough to handle the moment when it did come out well and has appeared to be be [ wait for it] evasive

People who say this is nothing – can you explain why the PM keeps changing his story?

And are you happy with our government voting against EU laws to crack down on tax evasion/avoidance?

I mean, I don’t actually expect an answer just more whataboutery and straw men, but I thought I’d ask anyway.

This ^^

Crazy thread..

Well, yes. Anyone who thinks the argument is limited to “a requirement” has a very narrow perspective.

Junkyard – lazarus

Why are folk surprised that people dont like to think our PM is a bit of wheeler dealer tax dodger?

He was political savvy enough to make sure he was not and politically savvy enough to realise why it would create a shit storm if/when it came out.
He was not politically savvy enough to handle the moment when it did come out well and has appeared to be be [ wait for it] evasive

getting bad media advice isn’t a crime,

He paid tax on the earnings from the scheme, ditched it prior to being PM

it’s a non story being whipped up to try and create a bigger story

And are you happy with our government voting against EU laws to crack down on tax evasion/avoidance?

UK Governments of all colours have a poor record on this, the EU has a poor record, Junker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven and has screwed the rest of Europe

UK Governments of all colours have a poor record on this, the EU has a poor record, Junker turned Luxembourg into a tax haven and has screwed the rest of Europe

You went for the whataboutery option – good choice.

he’s finished now, I’d just take the money, his shattered reputation and put me feet up and watch the others mess it all up. I’m sure he has enough to live on.

Hope they don’t change the rules on hedge funds as thats my and many others pensions knackered.

Cameron’s and the tories real problem is not that he got 30k from a tax-dodging investment fund, it’s that at a time where he’s cutting benefits to the disabled and saying the government can’t afford to protect thousands of jobs in the steel industry, he’s so rich he doesn’t even know where the money came from.

And are you happy with our government voting against EU laws to crack down on tax evasion/avoidance?

No, but they didn’t – they voted about against a motion in the European Parliament which has no ability to introduce such legislation – this motion was more akin to signing a petition.

he’s finished now, I’d just take the money, his shattered reputation and put me feet up and watch the others mess it all up.

Or just watch Glastonbury at home in front of a warm fire, in June.

Cameron mocked after claiming he watches Glastonbury in front of ‘warm fire’… in JUNE

Or just watch Glastonbury at home in front of a warm fire, in June.

Big houses in the country are notoriously difficult to heat.