[Closed] Zimbabwe

Go to Ethiopia, the only African country that was never properly colonised, and you will still find corruption so you can't blame that on the British or any other European coloniser.

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@Tom

The civilised bit was tongue in cheek, apologies if you missed that.

Butchering people based on ethnicity is wrong. Invading and imposing your values is wrong. How is the Filipinos kicking out an occupying force anyway related to dragging farmers, who by the way are providing employment and produce, out of their homes and killing them?

Also, genocidewatch doesn't have Zimbabwe listed as goibg full blown genocidey yet.

That's a relief! As long as they keep within the limits and don't murder or rape too many eh?

That's a relief! As long as they keep within the limits and don't murder or rape too many eh?

Also probably means they didn't talk to the Ndebele.

Coyote - Member

Are we saying that genocide against white people is OK as some sort of retribution for crimes carried out by Europeans against the indigenous people who's countries they invaded brought civilisation to?

Surely killing someone for their ethnicity is completely unjustified under any circumstances or am I missing something?

Here's the thing, if Japanese or Iranian or Inuits had committed the kind of genocidal atrocities the British did in Southern Africa then their descendants would be reaping the whirlwind in Zimbabwe now, so it's not purely about whites vs blacks.

That doesn't make it right, but when you are a 0.4% minority, sitting on vast estates that your great grandparents stole from the dirt poor 99.6% of what is essentially a failed state what do you expect? The remaining white settlers in Zimbabwe don't deserve to be raped, or tortured or murdered for the sins of their fathers but they should have gotten the **** out of their a long time ago.

I worked with someone who was the senior game keeper at one of Zimbabwe's largest farms and I've heard first hand accounts of what it's like to defend those farms with shotguns. They knew they were on borrowed time.

I've also got several friends who've relocated back to NI from South Africa with their entire extended families because they've foreseen that their way of life is becoming less and less sustainable.

So by violent expulsion of farmers who know how to manage the land and produce an abundance of crops we now have a basket case of a country on it's knees. Smart move by all concerned.

The white farmers are just as Zimbabwean as those doing the evicting. They are not "settlers", they are native.

Whitexit.

The white farmers are just as Zimbabwean as those doing the evicting. They are not "settlers", they are native.

Here's where I disagree, a lot of them were invited there in the 60's - specifically to swell the number of white people in the country, and that white government in power at the time was essentially illegitimate.

How is the Filipinos kicking out an occupying force anyway related to dragging farmers, who by the way are providing employment and produce, out of their homes and killing them?

The Filipino nationalists didn't just kick out an occupying army, they kicked out a lot of the entrenched corrupt Spanish families who provided employment as well (although not all of them, as Mestizos and Spanish clans are still a source of wanton corruption in that country).

Butchering people based on ethnicity is wrong. Invading and imposing your values is wrong.

Which is exactly what White Zimbabweans did, so - I just can't get worked up about it, what comes around goes around etc etc.

[i]Butchering people based on ethnicity is wrong. Invading and imposing your values is wrong.[/i]

Which is exactly what White Zimbabweans did, so - I just can't get worked up about it, what comes around goes around etc etc.

Did you actually read what you just wrote? More to the point, do you seriously believe that? People who are born in a country through no fault of their own are systematically butchered based on their ethnic origin and you don't have a problem with that?

For the "is it reasonable" test substitute one colour/ethnicity and see how the result makes you feel:

The white farmers are just as Zimbabwean as those doing the evicting. They are not "settlers", they are native.

"Here's where I disagree, a lot of them were invited there in the 60's - specifically to swell the number of white people in the country.."

"Here's where I disagree, a lot of them were invited there in the 60's - specifically to swell the number of asian people in the country.."

Tom, what you have given is an exact copy of what the arseholes in Britain First put out arguing that asian people aren't really British and should be "sent back home".

Jimjam:

That doesn't make it right, but when you are a 0.4% minority, sitting on vast estates that your great grandparents stole from the dirt poor 99.6% of what is essentially a failed state what do you expect? The remaining white settlers in Zimbabwe don't deserve to be raped, or tortured or murdered for the sins of their fathers but they should have gotten the **** out of their a long time ago.

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No it isn't, they were invited on a democratic mandate. Were the ones that moved during the 1960s? Were Asians invited here, specially to subdjugate the native majority? Conflating white settlers who used violence to hold onto their privileged positions, with immigrants in the UK is hilarious... is that how you see them? As bad a white zimabwean racists. Haha... you racist... you.

People who are born in a country through no fault of their own are systematically butchered based on their ethnic origin and you don't have a problem with that?

Perhaps, just perhaps, they shouldn't have tried to keep their hands on ill gotten gains in the first place. I'm not saying they deserved it, it's just that zero ****s are given by me.

cranberry - Member

Jimjam:

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Cranberry, you're got it barse ackwards I'm afraid. Nazi propaganda created lies that portrayed the Jews as having deprived Germans of their birthrights - this was a complete fallacy. We know as historical fact that the British, Cecil Rhodes and the British South Africa Company swindled Zimbabweans out of their country and it's mineral wealth for 1000 rifles and £100 a month. An agreement they tried to repeal as soon as they realised they'd be conned.

Coyote - Member

The white farmers are just as Zimbabwean as those doing the evicting. They are not "settlers", they are native.

Coyote, if someone managed to rob you of everything you own, and everything you ever could own and as a result your children and your grandchildren ended up destitute, sleeping on the streets, would you want your house and your property returned to your grandchildren if it meant the grandchildren of the thief would lose their "property"?

Zimbabwe was one of Africas most successful countries and the “bread basket” of the region. Now its on its knees, the confiscated farms mainly derelict. Mugabe has enriched himself enormously. Hardly progress whatever went before

OK, I'm out. Obviously there are those on STW who are happy seeing women and children raped and killed because of where they have been born and others who, whilst not necessarily happy, are content to turn a blind eye.

A new low.

Coyote - Member

OK, I'm out. Obviously there are those on STW who are happy seeing women and children raped and killed

Who said that? Also, could you answer my question?

I don't think white genicide is the correct term. It was more a nationalistic move. They first of all told all the non Zimbabwean black Africans to go. They were basically told leave or we won't be responsible for what happens to you. So they went leaving behind their jobs and houses. Next they told the whites to do the same. Most of them left. The ones that remained armed themselves and hired extra security. We know the brutality that happened after that which was horrible.

I'm not condoning what Mugabe did just pointing out it wasn't just a move against white people.

Good to see all this debate about the the evils of colonialism whilst the genocide of Ndebele isn't discussed.

Coyote - Member
OK, I'm out. Obviously there are those on STW who are happy seeing women and children raped and killed because of where they have been born and others who, whilst not necessarily happy, are content to turn a blind eye.

It's not that at all. My family left East Africa in the late 50s. It was general knowledge amongst the whites that the colonial days were coming to an end.

The Mau Mau in Kenya gave a pretty good indication of what the likely scenario would be for any whites who stayed when the local tribes reclaimed their ancestral lands, especially when you consider how the colonials acquired that land. We did not set the bar very high, and it was in living memory.

I think what is being expressed is surprise that any white person expected anything different from what has happened rather than a callous attitude towards them.

@Mefty, another butthurt rightie eh?

We weren't going on about the evils of colonialism, more enfhts outrage over a few hundred farmers being killed as opposed to up to a 100k dying during the ndebele crackdown.

It's all so predictable, it's not because he and a few others care, it's that it's an opportunity for them to have a go at the "pc leftie" brigade.

The point I was making is that there is a clear case of genocide against the Ndebele, but that didn't seem worth discussing, but wouldn't expect you to understand, you are not the sharpest tack etc.

Let's see what happens next. You don't get to be that high up in Mad Bob's army by being a nice guy . . . .

Quick send boris to sort it all out.

Pff, Boris is currently staring at a map wondering where Rhodesia is.

Is it too late to blame all this on Fatcha?

Cougar - Moderator
Pff, Boris is currently staring at a map wondering where Rhodesia is.

Mad Bob has until tomorrow to hand in his notice . . . .

JOHANNESBURG - Zimbabwe's President Robert Mugabe has been removed as the head of Zanu-PF.
Axed vice president Emmerson Mnangagwa has also been reinstated.
The party has also recalled Mugabe from his position as president and vice secretary.
He has been given until Monday afternoon to hand in his resignation.

It has been handled very calmly so far, but suggestions that if he doesn't resign the army will stop guarding him from the people who want to have a word with him about the manner in which he has been progressive in the last 37 years.

Don't know much about zimbabwe, watched a wee bit of news over the years and have a general sense of mugabe's reign.

Given that it's still going to be zanu that are in charge, what's the likelyhood of all that much changing.

Been watching a few news channels today, and it seems the guy that's going to be taking over isn't example a shining light either? albeit, seems to have a more business and external inward investment friendly outlook.

Still a long way to go for zimbabwe in general I guess? Mugabe is an important symbolic move mind as is stopping his plans for a dynasty I guess..

seems the guy that's going to be taking over isn't example a shining light either?

Another thing that strikes me about the mugabe situation is the importance of revolving and changing governments, sticking to one view point is generally going to descend into crap, on various levels. But seems to me variety of government and regular turnaround is important.

Not just looking at zimbabwe there the likes of cuba, china, russia etc, but even a look closer to home, with less extreme eamples, the thatcher/major governments went on too long, as did blair/brown and theis current tory government is definitely going too long(even though they don't meet the criteria for my next suggested rule.).

Never going to happen, but I wonder, if you get into goverment, should you be barred from the next term, or atleast say a 10 year limit be put on a single party rule. (I await cries of but democwacy....)

Good point 77 but the snag is governments spend the first term trying to undo what has been done by the previous mob and thus only have a 2nd chance usually until the bloody useless electorate, who vote for their own pocket, change their mind no matter who is in.
Maybe the other way round? minimum of 20 years then at least any theory should have a bit of time to work or not.
Zimbabwe? I'll put a quid on riots and degeneration into tribal clashes or similar before the year is out. Sadly.

Loved the placard shown on BBC News this morning:

"To Hell with Political Shenanigans!"

I bet when Bob does his speech we will get crocodile tears. It’s unlikely that he will walk away without planting some more poisonous seeds.

Hopefully Zims can return to the rule of law and the economic situation improves.

I don't know why you are comparing China to Zimbabwe and Cuba. By all accounts the CCP is doing a bang up job managing China, save for its human rights record.

It's also actually democratic in it's own wayy, but I'm sure you guys already know how government is formed and selected in China?

nah matt, obvious long before 20 years if a government isn't working, if the ideas are good they'll generally be implemented by the next government, even if not, it's the to and fro of governments that keeps democracy healthy, one side imposing it's theories and will to the detriment of other sides is unhealthy.

Jeez Bob stop droning on. Just say sorry and bugger off there's a good chap.

Not going.

I rather think he's just signed his own death sentence..

Anyone else expecting the 93 year old to have a heart attack in the next couple of days?

Why didn't this happen say 35 years ago?

The way it’s ‘done’ in Zims is to be involved in a car accident involving a large truck which is never found...,

Bob won’t believe he’s done anything to be sorry about.. he still believes in his head he’s fighting a revolutionary war....

slowoldman - Member
Why didn't this happen say 35 years ago?

When you say "outright baddie" - where does the murder of 20,000 people in the early 80's come in to the calculation ?

no idea, just talking about the public view of him, spotlight didn't really get shone till he started kicking the white folks out their farms.

Might you I don't remember much news before the 90s, so happy to be corrected on world opinion pre 95.

I’m always amazed by swivel eyed loons’ knowledge of late twentieth century African history.

I’m always amazed by swivel eyed loons’ knowledge of late twentieth century African history.

Glory dayz and all that.

They meant take back control of other countries and ting...

He was definitely seen as a baddie in the 80s when he sent The Fifth Brigade (who reported directly to him rather than through the army) to kill his fellow freedom fighters ZAPU and their families in Matabeleland - in the range 3,750 – 30,000 according to Wiki.

There were lots of other baddies in Africa at the time though and no appetite in the UK for a (post) colonial war.