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This time in a bowling alley, 16 to 22 people feared dead.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
How many mass shootings do they have per year?
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
How many mass shootings do they have per year?
No.
1 a day, roughly. (a mass shooting is any shooting where more than 4 people are killed)
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
Nope. In a twisted sense of logic, it seems to be a common belief that with so many guns out in the population and ever more mass shootings it is more important than ever that good god fearing members of the population have a right to carry arms.
There will be a call by the NRA to routinely arm bowling alley workers.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
Not when thoughts and prayers are keeping things under control.
The immediate response will be "its too soon to talk about it. Think about the dead".
Then quiet until the next incident.
There will be a call by the NRA to routinely arm
bowling alley workerseveryone.
FTFY.
Firearms sales normally spike after bigger shootings, as all the gun nuts try to get them before any feared bans come into place, that never materialise.
Leave ‘em to it I say. They’ve had numerous opportunities to show some sense, yet here we are.
Thoughts and prayers are bullet proof aren't they?
When I was a teenager, The US seemed a place of awe, mainly fuelled by Hollywood.
I don't even think that the mass shootings, as horrific as they are, are even close to being the worse thing about the place, they are just another example of many many failures. Poverty and racism is grandfathered into their society, the inequality, the greed, the live to work culture, the lack of social and medical care, the mass homelessness.
It really is the most disgusting failed society that I can imagine, that is somehow held up as an ideal.
Then quiet until the next incident.<br /><br /><br />
…which will probably be tomorrow. Indications are that the perp had known mental health issues and had threatened to shoot co-workers
I'm sure I've posted this before
But the numbers are just staggering 477 shot & killed this year to date & that's just one city.
When these events happen in America,my first thoughts are usually :-
1/ I am glad we have better gun control.
2/ and some of the lyrics from 'Do Nothing' by The Specials
I know someone who lives in Lewiston, and I have lots of friends, colleagues and family members across the US. So please don't come out with the 'leave them to it, serves them right' stuff, it's horrible.
Regarding gun control, whilst I support strong gun controls, I don't believe that's actually the problem in the US. The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
If Sandy Hook (and any other School shooting since) wasn't enough to bring about change nothing will.
Leave ‘em to it I say. They’ve had numerous opportunities to show some sense, yet here we are.
I'm inclined to agree with this - although i'm well aware of the human suffering left in the wake of each mass shooting.
In my opinion nothing will change until todays kids, who've grown up with the fear of being blown to bits whist at school are in Congress and the Senate - so lets discuss again in 50 years.
A little bit of a tangent, but my brother is for all intents and purposes German now (interestingly he doesn't give up his UK passport). Since brexit he has developed a feverish xenophobia for anything English.
He takes great joy in pinging me every time there's a stabbing death in the UK claiming it's unsafe to be in the country. Now, I appreciate England has got a little "stabby" recently but another factor is our media loves reporting on it. The reply when I show stats showing Germany has 3x more instances? And (back on subject) 6x more deaths by shooting? - "tHeY'Re jUsT NuMBeRs"
Only 50 school shootings so far this year in the US. I’d say policy seems to be working as well as expected. Uvalde in Texas (where 19 children and two teachers died) was the 27th school shooting of that year. After Sandy Hook and Uvalde, the fact that little has changed tells you nothing will change.
"leave them to it, serves them right" is horrible but "leave them to it, there's nothing sane people can do about it, especially from the UK" sounds about right.
I heard a really fascinating podcast recently (think it was malcolm gladwell guest appearance on a tim Harford thing). He was arguing that the whole gun freedom thing was based on fictionalised fantasies about the wild west that were actually the exact reverse of the reality. He used as an example some v popular western tv show that was full of goodies killing baddies and specifically one story when a guy gave up his gun (to avoid being a magnet for trouble), he later got killed, whereas in reality the town had initially a sky-high death rate when founded, it then introduced strict gun control, and the death rate plummeted. He was wondering if the supreme court judges were watching this when they were young...
The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
Which doesnt work well if people dont have guns to go and shoot people with.
The lack of firearms control is a fundamental part of the problem. Yes other things can be used but there is a reason why modern armies carry rifles rather than rapiers. They are a lot more effective.
It really is the most disgusting failed society that I can imagine, that is somehow held up as an ideal.
Usually by people who've either never been there, or have only been for a holiday.
Folk though also need to remember that gun 'control' is used as a 'wedge' issue, same with abortion - and the strategy is been used here too, by folk with the same political ideology.
Which doesnt work well if people dont have guns to go and shoot people with.
Sure, but taking everyone's guns away (if that were possible) wouldn't solve the underlying problems of violence.
Like I said, strict gun control is essential, but it's far from the only thing they need.
The problem is a society that promotes the conditions where people want to go out and shoot a load of people.
...alongside easy access to very deadly weaponry. I get where you're coming from and for the overwhelming majority of America, their murder rate is similar to that of European countries, but you can't un-link the issues.
I'm not trying to un-link them, I'm trying to link them. Gun control is not the only issue, that's what I'm saying.
It really is the most disgusting failed society that I can imagine, that is somehow held up as an ideal.
But it isn't though is it? When was the last time you heard a politician claim that we should adopt a practice because "that's how they do it in the United States"?
US society tends to be held up as ideal by right-wing Americans, not many other people. But conservatives throughout the world tend to think that about their own individual societies, so it is hardly unique to the United States.
Ironically much of the terminology considered progressive in the UK has its roots in the US, eg, "political correctness", "woke", and "people of colour".
The United States is very obviously far from perfect but it is also very obviously not the worse country in the world to live in.
Unfortunately for the US due to historical consequences, which didn't have parallels in other similar societies, they have dug themselves hole over the Second Amendment which is proving difficult to climb out of.
Will this be enough to change gun control laws there?
Given who the new speaker is, probably, just not the way you'd hope.
Why would they want to prevent this? They have set their society up so that these events happen frequently and efficiently. What conclusion should you reach other than they want this to happen?
It's just the cost of doing business. And inwardly acceptable to a large chunk of Americans, just pump out some 'thoughts and prayers', but probably don't even bother thinking, or praying about it, as that might make them feel less comfortable.
They are comfortable with a Russian-funded sponsor of domestic terror setting the agenda on the issue.
As above, if Sandy Hook didn't shift the dial, nothing will. Leave them to it. These people prize their guns over children.
“leave them to it, serves them right” is horrible but “leave them to it, there’s nothing sane people can do about it, especially from the UK” sounds about right.
To me this also feels about the right sentiment. There is so much wrong, so much suffering and blighted lives across the globe that fretting about the misfortunes in the most wealthy nation in the world from the UK feels like a poor use of the ****s I've got to give. I'm not say it's an easy fix (and Molgrips is right - the weapon is the end of a chain of wrong), but if any nation had the resources to sort themselves out it's them (collectively). So my ****s are reserved for elsewhere.
Here we go - again.
The (suspected) shooter is a certified gun instructor, army reservist who recently made threats to kill at a National Guard base and is reported as having mental health problems - who was able to wander about with a lethal weapon.
The US political system does not have the will to make fundamental changes to gun control laws as it is completely dysfunctional.
My reaction to US mass shootings has now reached the stage of...another one, ho hum.
No doubt the NRA will attempt to capitalise on this - again.
How long before ted cruz slimes his way onto tv and mouths his empty platitudes about thoughts and prayers?
There'll be another mass shooting along soon.
Molgrips is not right at all. The weapon is the beginning and end of the chain of wrong. Without them you'd have a few stabbings, a few cars driven into groups of people and a lot of people shouting at clouds.
The weapon is the beginning and end of the chain of wrong.
They've about 5 times as many road deaths per capita as the UK.
Guns are involved in a similar number of deaths to road accidents there (though over half of those are suicides).
Knives are involved in about one and a half times as many killings per capita compared with the uk.
There are roughly 6 times as many murders in the USA per capita.
Demographically the victims are overwhelmingly male and poor, with over 50% being african American men.
Guns are not the problem they're a facet of a system which simply doesn't value life enough.
Getting rid of guns might solve most of the mass killings but the problem isn't mass killings, that's just the bit you're least comfortable with and grabs the headlines best because it's not another dirt poor 19 year old black kid shot on his way to school that people don't identify with.
These people prize their guns over children.
But that's overly simplistic to the point of nonsense though isn't it? They're might be some gun nuts who think that and will convince themselves of anything, but the vast majority of Americans are more than aware that their gun issue is out of control, but feel powerless to do anything about it. You can sort of compare it to climate change; we all know that our addiction to fossil fuels is making the very thing that sustains us; unable to sustain us...And yet here we are.
There are roughly 6 times as many murders in the USA per capita.
Yes but...Not all Americans experience murder rates like that. In fact, most Americans live in counties and states that have similar statistics to Europe when it comes to murder, it's just that a few places really skew the stats.
But that’s overly simplistic to the point of nonsense though isn’t it? But that’s overly simplistic to the point of nonsense though isn’t it? They’re might be some gun nuts who think that and will convince themselves of anything, but the vast majority of Americans are more than aware that their gun issue is out of control, but feel powerless to do anything about it.
Not really. If the American people were truly outraged by the gun control situation, they would send an overwhelming majority of gun control advocates to Congress and the Senate. Instead, they continue to put people bought and paid for by the NRA into these positions. Voters in key states simply have other priorities when they arrive at the ballot box. They do not value innocent lives highly enough to override their normal voting allegiances.
It is a simple situation. After Newbury and Dunblane, we enacted swingeing gun control legislation with widespread public support. Change is possible.
But taking everyone’s guns away (if that were possible) wouldn’t solve the underlying problems of violence.
Swap them with cuddly toys and I am fairly sure less people would die.
You have the semblance of a good point in the background but your basic premise about the guns is bobbins I'm afraid.
they would send an overwhelming majority of gun control advocates to Congress and the Senate
They can only pick the card the magician offers. When the gun lobby buys the politicians from both the major parties, the voting deck is stacked against reforming gun control.
Guns are not <em style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;">the problem they’re a facet of a system which simply doesn’t value life enough.
LMFTFY
Guns are one of the problems, they're a facet of a system which simply doesn't value life enough.
Change is possible
Of course it is, but as you say, it's not high up on their radar, becasue most Americans experience gun violence or murder rates that are no different from ours here in the UK. Plus the same is still true of us, we all know climate change is going to make our planet un-inhabitable for our grandchildren, why isn't parliament stuffed with the Green party? If Europeans were truly outraged they wouldn't be using dodgy accounting tricks via Belgium to get around the gas sanctions placed on Russia to keep their houses nice and warm on the cheap.
Singling out Americans as uniquely unable to solve their seemingly intractable issues, when its very obviously an entirely normal human reaction to huge societal problems, is weird.
After Newbury
I thought for a moment you were talking about the Battle of Newbury and wondered how old you were. I assume you're talking about the Hungerford Massacre - pedantic but just avoiding my brother pinging me to tell me there's been a killing in my village 🙂
Jacinda has some free time. Vote her in next time.
Yes but…Not all Americans experience murder rates like that. In fact, most Americans live in counties and states that have similar statistics to Europe when it comes to murder, it’s just that a few places really skew the stats.
The worst 1% of counties have 19% of the population and 37% of the murders. The worst 2% of counties contain 28% of the population and 51% of the murders. The worst 5% of counties contain 47% of the population and account for 68% of murders. But even within those counties the murders are very heavily concentrated in small areas
So the areas with most murders are those with the densest populations, who would have guessed? Those areas will be the same as the ones with the highest concentration of poverty and non white demographics.
That's precisely the same here where most murders occur in London (about 1/5th) followed by greater Manchester.
If you discount London, Manchester and Birmingham you discount almost 50% of homicides in the UK and if you picked and chose which bits of London to look at you could doubtless ditch something like half the boroughs without removing a single homicide.
Out of interest can anyone see how much of an impact the bans following Hungerford and Dunblane had - I can find the data in theory on the ons but trying to decipher it on a mobile screen isn't so easy.
It "feels" to me like the bans here were more eye catching than effective in so much as I honestly don't recall gun violence being much of a thing before Dunblane (and I'm not old enough to remember pre 84.)
Great to see its polarising opinion over here so well (assuming its mostly UK posters at present)
Luckily we clamped down on gun ownership after a couple of mass shootings. As our social/health care systems start to fail over here, we'd be close to the wider American problems molgrips was talking about.
Tragic for those affected, but it's up to the silent majority of Americans to find their voice to try and slow, then reverse this problem.
Out of interest can anyone see how much of an impact the bans following Hungerford and Dunblane had – I can find the data in theory on the ons but trying to decipher it on a mobile screen isn’t so easy.
It “feels” to me like the bans here were more eye catching than effective in so much as I honestly don’t recall gun violence being much of a thing before Dunblane (and I’m not old enough to remember pre 84.)
You can't manage "effectiveness" this way. It's like adding flood defences to a house that has not yet been flooded. You can never prove its effectiveness if you're looking at before and after results. Only the after results matter.
but it’s up to the silent majority of Americans to find their voice
American politicians know, along with the rest of the word, what the majority of their fellow Americans think about this issue already it's not a state secret, it won't come as a shocking surprise to any of them. Like most massive societal issues, it's hugely unfair to ask individuals to vote to solve it, because at the end of the day, that's what you're asking. The gun issue in this country was resolved by legislation started by the govt, as it was in Australia, when politicians stood up and did the thing that they're paid to do.
Currently the GOP cant even decide amongst themselves to appoint their own leader for a House that they have the majority of votes in. If you want to see where the gun control issue lies, that's as good a place as any.
Currently the GOP cant even decide amongst themselves to appoint their own leader for a House that they have the majority of votes in
They have. They've appointed a hard right, anti abortion, anti gay rights 2020 election disputer.
It does not bode well for any sort of sensible legislation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-67220358