Leave them to it. They want guns, that is the result.
"They" don't want guns.
Saying crap like that is highly offensive.
Before you jump down my throat I am not condoning this but think about several things. a) None of our bloody business. b) Balence number of deaths against number of people and it's only a problem for those families affected.c) As over here, it's somewhat silly and selfish to rant about firearms when you look at road deaths.
Motor vehicles should be looked at first.
As over here, it’s somewhat silly and selfish to rant about firearms when you look at road deaths.
Motor vehicles should be looked at first.
Cars have a purpose beyond killing people
Machine guns
Not so much
it’s somewhat silly and selfish to rant about firearms when you look at road deaths.
Motor vehicles should be looked at first.
I can't believe you'd be silly and selfish enough to bang on about road deaths when heart disease kills many times more people.
Saying crap like that is highly offensive.
Offensive to who? If "they" really didn't want guns "they" would have done something about it but the majority of "them" seem to want them and live with the negative consequences, day by day, week by week.
It is "their" culture which is why I suggested to leave "them" to it.
Heard about this on a podcast earlier. No charges for the shooter apparently. An absolute dump of a country
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/state/north-carolina/article261066462.html
If “they” really didn’t want guns “they” would have done something about it but the majority of “them” seem to want them
I believe most Americans don't own guns and most Americans support stricter gun controls. Which shouldn't be confused with the NRA's huge influence and the power of money in what is a deeply flawed democratic model.
If “they” really didn’t want guns “they” would have done something about it but the majority of “them” seem to want them
Off the top of my head, the number of guns to people in the US is about 1:1 but gun ownership is around 50%. Those that own a gun tend to own guns, it's not an even distribution.
"They" want / don't want guns in much the same way that "we" wanted brexit. The US has its problems but "America wants guns" is in reality a rash generalisation.
b) Balence number of deaths against number of people and it’s only a problem for those families affected.
You actually ****ing what?
It's crazy and it's tragic, but it's an American problem and only America can change it, sadly.
f “they” really didn’t want guns “they” would have done something about it
There is no "they". The USA is highly polarised. Most people are largely normal, but they have to put up with gun wielding nutters occasionally shooting their children because of other people's fanatical opposition to gun control and other measures that might help improve society.
Thinking that a whole country is of one mind based on what you see in the media is xenophobia, and it's how wars start.
It’s crazy and it’s tragic, but it’s an American problem and only America can change it, sadly.
The problem isn't actually guns, it's society itself. Lots of other countries have lots of guns yet this rarely if ever happens. Now I'm not supporting the gun laws but I'm just warning that there's more to it than that. America has even deeper problems.
Fair point molgrips, it's much wider than some gun ownership.
Made me dig out this, if it works
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in what is a deeply flawed democratic model.
Yep, they all are. What are you going to do, shoot at it...
Gun homicides and suicides are just a symptom of something bigger that won’t solved just by legislation relating to guns. The only thing stricter controls and reduced ownership would address is accidental gun deaths
This isn't correct. There's a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA. It's the same logic that sees bridges have netting fixed to them - stop impetuous acts and it gives people time to calm down and reflect a bit more on that proposed course of action.
What are you going to do
Well I'm fairly limited in what I can do but I would start off by not letting my opinion of their flawed democracy, where money buys political power, influence whether I thought Americans deserve to live in peace and free from violence.
There’s a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA
Surely not as much of a problem as depression and other untreated mental illness?
There’s a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA
Surely not as much of a problem as depression and other untreated mental illness?
Motivation and method are separate issues. Yes, ideally it would be best to remove the underlying causes of suicidal impulses but even without addressing them means reduction saves lives by reducing the lethality of attempts.
Yup. Just consider the difference that paracetemol restrictions made- and that's purely an inconvenience of going around different shops to buy enough. Also it's pretty much accepted that many people fixate on method, for suicide, and if that method is unavailable then they may simply not do it. Not all of course.
Thanks for the link Ernie. I couldn't be bothered to look it up.
There’s a fair amount of anecdotal evidence from survivors that shows that easy access to guns is a big factor in suicide in the USA
Another top-of-my-head stat I can't be arsed to validate - I seem to recall that most shootings in the US are from the victim's own gun. Be that suicide, accident, domestic argument, having it taken off you by an assailant, etc etc.
my opinion of their flawed democracy, where money buys political power, influence
I'm thankful that that could never happen here.
You think the UK has a flawless democratic model? You might be disappointed.
Although luckily we don't quite yet have anything which approaches the NRA's ability to end political careers.
Which is all the more reason why the US shouldn't be offered as a democratic model to aspire to.
Um...
The gun control issue (like the healthcare issue) is just another indicator of the dysfunctional political system in America, and the growing "culture wars" phenomenon.
The GoP (mostly, but not only) have figured out that stoking fear, outrage and division is a far easier way of getting elected, than actually trying to govern well. It's even easier now that they've figured-out that they don't really need to try that hard..... you can twist the facts outrageously (or just flat-out lie) and huge swathes of the media will endorse whatever you've said, and so people will still support you.
Even when you are in power, you can behave outrageously - but the strength of this culture-war stuff is such that you can remain in power.
Gun control is an illustration of quite how far you can go with this approach:
America already has gun control. There are a bunch of measures already in place controlling who has access to what firearm. The overwhelming majority of Americans support more gun control. However, despite daily mass shootings, school massacres etc - it just seems to be not politically possible to deliver what the majority of Americans want. The right and their enablers have managed to convince people that closing gun control loopholes is SO terrible, that people are willing to put up with regular school shootings to avoid it.
The whole thing is completely **** ed. The political system in the US has now been subverted sufficiently that it can't even fix itself, so things are only going to go in one direction.
I’m thankful that that could never happen here.
Exactly, if gun manufacturers and associations thought they could get a gun law through and sell guns and arms then they would soon be giving money to the Tory party, getting press behind it and so on.
The different is the UK does not have an ingrained gun culture where guns are seen as a right and a last resort to take control when everything deteriorates to a point when needed to defend yourself.
Which is why I said let them get on with it.
but it’s an American problem
Lots of other countries have lots of guns yet this rarely if ever happens
Hear this a lot. Compared to most other European countries the murder rate in Switzerland (lots of home gun ownership) isn't that different to most other western European countries. But look at bit deeper and most homicide there has a gun somewhere in it. Give people access to guns and they'll use them.
The GoP (mostly, but not only) have figured out that stoking fear, outrage and division is a far easier way of getting elected, than actually trying to govern well. It’s even easier now that they’ve figured-out that they don’t really need to try that hard….. you can twist the facts outrageously (or just flat-out lie) and huge swathes of the media will endorse whatever you’ve said, and so people will still support you.
Stochastic terrorism.
Say enough shit in the media to demonise an outgroup and someone reading that, listening to it on Fox News etc will do it.
Tell your audience to kill / to storm the Capitol building and someone will do it. Then you can sit back and act all surprised that someone took your "metaphor" seriously. The worst aspects of the media will even portray the assailant as some sort of victim.
Also willing to bet that if the gunman had been black, he'd have been shot dead the second he walked out of the store. White guy? Just a simple arrest will do...
this, and lack of socialized healthcare, and a range of other "wtf" factors raises serious questions about their inclusion on the "first world countries" list imo.
Which is why I said let them get on with it.
Just to let you know, 'them' includes my wife's family.
I said before, and I think it was also said earlier in this thread. If they wouldn't/couldn't change laws and attitudes after Sandy Hook then they never will. Debate is futile.
Again
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2022/may/24/texas-elementary-school-shooting-uvalde-latest
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/09/13/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/
The most interesting thing for me is that there is a majority in favour of more gun control. I seems corrupt to me that this does translate into laws being passed in their government
seems corrupt to me that this does translate into laws being passed in their government
Don’t underestimate the power and control/money that lobbying interests have over the entire governments ability to pass laws
I said before, and I think it was also said earlier in this thread. If they wouldn’t/couldn’t change laws and attitudes after Sandy Hook then they never will. Debate is futile.
Looking the other way when horrors like this happen is just the price that politicians are prepared to pay for their NRA dollars. Just the cost of doing business. And the structural imbalances in US democracy mean that Biden knows attacking gun laws means certain defeat in the midterms, and probably for him personally in 2024.
Even basket ball coaches showing more moral leadership that politicians
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-61576574
Basketball legend and current Golden State coach Steve Kerr passionately wades in ahead of a decisive game in Texas (his academic dad was killed by a gunman in Beirut in 80’s)
https://twitter.com/warriors/status/1529246789290934272
Gut wearing a t-shirt with the slogan "**** your gun free zone" loses his daughter in the shooting and asks why.
"it's like rain on your wedding day....."
The United States really is an unappealing place..... And to think this is a country the rest of the world is meant to look up to....
Screwed abortion laws.
Guns.
Fat bastids.
The idea that any form of taxation and redistribution is basically communism.
Really is quite pathetic.
You forgot their utterly demented interpretation of Christianity, Alpin. But yes.
shermer75
Free MemberThe most interesting thing for me is that there is a majority in favour of more gun control
It's a perfect snapshot of how generalities and specifics can clash in the human brain.
Want to stop people on no fly lists getting guns? Yes
Want to stop convicted felons from getting guns? Yes
Want to stop the medically insane from getting guns? Yes
Want to stop young kids from getting guns? Yes
Want waiting times and background checks? Yes
Want a ban on specific things such as fully automatic rifles, bump stocks, etc? Yes
BUT NO TO GUN CONTROL.
Don’t underestimate the power and control/money that lobbying interests have over the entire governments ability to pass laws
Exactly! So much corruption, it stinks
I’ve just read a tweet that stated that as there are 50 million primary school children in the USA, then such shootings are a one-in-a-million event and therefore reactions are overblown. I guess the parents of victims can take comfort…
The usa has a population of 330 million, seems unlikely that 50 million of them are in primary school.
