[Closed] Would you want the Americans to rescue you?

its funny because its true

Any knowledge of the US Army for those informed opinions? (Call of Duty & the like doesnt count).

The latest on the story is that it is thought a grenade lobbed by one of the American rescuers is what actually killed the poor woman. I'm no military expert but surely trying to rescue somebody by chucking a grenade in their general direction is a stupid idea?

I think the 'Special' in American Special Forces is possibly short for special needs.

Any of you keyboard warriors have any idea of what you are talking about?

I think the 'Special' in American Special Forces is possibly short for special needs.

Is it the same "special" that's used in "special relationship" ?

You know, the one TB took us to war in Iraq for. That relationship.

[url= http://media.theonion.com/images/articles/article/645/onion_news1562_jpg_250x1000_q85.jp g" target="_blank">http://media.theonion.com/images/articles/article/645/onion_news1562_jpg_250x1000_q85.jp g"/> [/img] - Click[/url]

@RepacK - No. Sorry.

I've been very pleased to see Americans on occasion. With the rise of Op New Dawn there will be no more Americans as first responders in my job and that's a massive loss.

Clearly being able to read things on the internet has made people experts in areas they clearly know nothing about.

If it comes to a choice between the US "Special" Forces and a bunch of Terrorists I think I'd be better off with the Terrorists

you should have volunteered to put your arse on the line & do the job for them - I'm sure they'd have appreciated the evening off.

I'd rather be killed than tortured. But it is very unfortunate that the rescue went wrong I agree. 🙁

Any of you keyboard warriors have any idea of what you are talking about?

I know plenty of people who have served in the armed forces. Based on what they've told me about the yanks I think the best thing to do when around US armed forces is to make sure you are a very very long way away from them when the shooting starts as they tend to make a bit of a mess.

I think the fact that they may well have killed the very person they were meant to have been rescuing says it all...

I think the fact that they may well have killed the very person they were meant to have been rescuing says it all...

Only if you've already made a decision on the details before knowing anything more than the most basic facts... 🙄

I'd rather be killed than tortured. But it is very unfortunate that the rescue went wrong I agree.

You're right - utterly tragic. Yet the tragedy doesnt stop the asinine comments from some. If this is the case you had better believe that the soldier responsible is utterly devastated by whats happened. My thoughts are with the Family.

Only if you've already made a decision on the details before knowing anything more than the most basic facts..

+1

On balance, I'd rather be killed by my rescuers than killed by my captors.

You 'experts' may not have a high opinion of US Special Forces, which may or may not be justified, but the fact is they were prepared to die to rescue the hostage.
How many of you would do the same?

I think for all time all such operations will now luck amateurish compared to the SAS actions in the Iranian hostage siege. But when you look at what they did there, it involved a massive slice of luck, that is rarely going to happen, if ever again.

And if you look at the SAS they have always been extremely secretive, at that point they where forced into the spotlight, but they then stepped back into the shadows. Who knows how many cock ups and calamities they have had without our knowledge.

I think the mistake the American military make is in trying to create a media image, in courting the media as they do they also highlight the mistakes. There may be something in the American psychi that causes that, an optimism that can cloud the possible negative outcomes.

you can stay here with the terrorists or we come get you, can't be sure how it will pan out mind you.

i know what i would choose.

Fekin shame it went wrong though. 🙁

i suppose it comes down to the risk that she was under, assuming that all avenues of negotiation had been exhuasted a rescue must have been the only option

i doubt we will ever know exactly what happens, unless ome footage makes its way onto wikileaks

Who knows how many cock ups and calamities they have had without our knowledge.

Well if any of Brave-two-zero is actually realistic then the planning for their operation reeked of incompetence.

You know how in war/action films they say that something's risky and it could all go massively wrong but despite the inevitable things going wrong, everything still works out fine 99% of the time.

That's not like real life.

+1 for richmars.

shame but if you enter a war zone, you may get killed, sometimes by accident, i wouldn't fancy the odds of a rescue mission by any special
forces but it's better than being beaten half to death then skinned alive by the locals.

does it sound like the troops were trying to cover up their own mistake
hence the suicide vest story that came out over the weekend

[url= http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/11/uk.afghanistan.hostage.death/index.html?hpt=T1 ]http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/10/11/uk.afghanistan.hostage.death/index.html?hpt=T1[/url]
[i]The initial report on the rescue mission by the troops who carried it out did not mention throwing a grenade, but a follow-up report did, which "raised a lot of question about what killed" Norgrove, U.S. Air Force Capt. Gary Kirchner told CNN after Cameron spoke.[/i]

On balance, I'd rather be killed by my rescuers than killed by my captors.

Yeah americans or taliban, 'mericans every time. It would ahve been nice if it was the sas or even the french special forces as they are shit hot, or mossad, but americans will do me nicely thank you.

does it sound like the troops were trying to cover up their own mistake

Possibly. Or as often happens, in the rush to get a story out, chinese whispers takes hold - one reporter overhears someone say that it's normal for them to keep a suicide vest on the hostage so maybe that's what happened and next thing it's being reported as fact.

I wouldn't bother RepacK, any excuse to be racist towards Americans is taken up on this forum. 🙄

I've served alongside US troops (and the US Navy) in the past, and have found them to be very professional. Different in a lot of ways, but professional. I'm sure those above slating them have very often fast roped into a Taliban stronghold in the dark, laden with kit, not really knowing what to expect, come under accurate hostile fire from a determined enemy and risked their lives for a stranger.

Its unfortunate she was killed, but "No plan survives the first contact with the enemy" and its certainly not the US SF's fault.

BSB - Sorry, I'd assumed that "I'd rather not be killed but..." was a moot point.

🙄

would that be the embassy siege where one of our SAS was set alight by burning curtains while dangling from a rapel rope ?

racist towards Americans

when the white colonists arrived and started trampling the locals, or later on on this forum?

I wouldn't bother RepacK, any excuse to be racist towards Americans is taken up on this forum.

Its not just that, its all the armchair heroes who think they know something about an event that they have **** all knowledge of. I would bet my life that none of these critics of US Special Forces have ever been in a firefight themselves.

I've served alongside US troops (and the US Navy) in the past, and have found them to be very professional. Different in a lot of ways, but professional. I'm sure those above slating them have very often fast roped into a Taliban stronghold in the dark, laden with kit, not really knowing what to expect, come under accurate hostile fire from a determined enemy and risked their lives for a stranger.

Its unfortunate she was killed, but "No plan survives the first contact with the enemy" and its certainly not the US SF's fault.

Says it all really.

im not blaming the americans special forces

as far as i can tell the US command panicked when they thought she might be moved to ****stan where her value as a hostage and propaganda tool would be greatly increased
willy hague then agreed with the americans that it was best to send in the troops

this despite the wishes of the negotiating team (and norgroves family) who were confident of a peaceful solution

distrust of the 2 wars and the troops involved is hardly surprising

lies from politicians to get us into iraq (and a complete failure of the opposition to question those lies)
images like abu graib (probably the defining image of america in iraq)
courts martial of troops abusing prisoners, rape, murder subsequent cover ups etc etc

and then a change in the story about how she was killed
and you have echoes of de menezes

the war against terror hasnt done much to improve the public perception of the military or government

When I was in the Territorials, the general opinion of the National Guard was not that high.

However I will the be the first to admit that this is not exactly a sound base on which to make a comparison; obviously the NG and Delta et al are somewhat different animals.

My impression otherwise has always been that the US Special Forces are very competent. Maybe not up to the standards of the SAS and SBS, but very competent nonetheless. You don't get through something like SEAL or Delta selection (or even the Ranger course, come to that) without a great deal of self-discipline and military competency.

[i]Clearly being able to read things on the internet has made people experts in areas they clearly know nothing about. [/i]

With respect, b0llocks, I think the defining feature of this war has been this deferring, "leave the military decisions to military men"/"God bless our boys too bad about the pinko politicians" attitude. People who are not in the army need to confidently challenge decisions made by soldiers for this war to be run effectively. In this respect Obama is doing a hell of a lot better than his predecessor.

In fact if you read around the subject, all the greatest wartime leaders (Churchill, Lincoln, etc.) were not afraid to engage with military decisions. You cannot neatly hive off the military sphere from the political sphere, unfortunately. Incidentally all the comments here about not using grenades to rescue her are [i]right[/i] on, though not in the way that perhaps the commenters mean. The answer to this situation was engagement/negotiation with Elders, Taliban etc. It's not like "grenades were bad, but 5.62mm would have been alright". The kinetic solution was the wrong approach entirely.

jhw - well said, almost..

The answer to this situation was engagement/negotiation with Elders, Taliban etc. It's not like "grenades were bad, but 5.62mm would have been alright". The kinetic solution was the wrong approach entirely.

We dont have all the facts as you accurately stated so how do you draw the conclusion that the choice made was the wrong one? Are you privvy to some info others are not or is that just your opinion?

ps agree with pretty much everything else you say.

Difficult call and the USA defenders have to accept that their record on friendly fire deaths and refusal to testify here on these cases does lead to resentment. Yes sh1t happens in war but stand up and be counted for your errors.
Tough call IMHO damned if they do damned if they dont. I have no wish to pour scorn on the execution of their brave attempt which may or may not have been carried out brilliantly and may or may not have been the best choice.
They are brave whether they are misguided is another issue.
Shot by rescuers would be my choice, whatever their nationality.

I think the question we would all really like an answer to is; what tyres for an Afghan cave assault?

High Rollers blatantly...unless it's muddy.

I wonder which way round the Afghans put their brakes.

You're right, that part of my commment lacks any basis in the particular facts of this situation, of which I'm unaware (I know they were keen to stop her being traded on). It does seem though as if they were about to get a breakthrough using this approach based on reporting etc. although with the news industry what it is today, who knows. I do know on excellent authority that right before the bombing began in Afghanistan in October 2001 it was beginning to look like the Taliban were going to expel Osama anyway. Completely different subject but real food for thought.

I can understand the decrying of "keyboard warriors" etc, but in reality, very, very few people are going to be qualified to make a valid judgement based on first hand experience - and they tend to keep a low profile.

Having no direct experience of an issue is rarely a bar on commenting, and doesn't necessarily indicate ignorance. There have been plenty of balanced "broadsheet" news coverage and in depth analysis of the recent "wars on terror" and other military operations and the underlying politics, along with other media reportage and published factual accounts from current / former serving personnel. "Casual" observers / commentators need not be badly informed....

big dave

anything with a flakjacket sidewall for caves

More kneejerk anti-Americanism from clueless morons.

Grow up.

For any Americans that happen to be reading this thread, the majority of us are not like these cocks, who appear to have got lost on their way to the Guardian's CiF site.

very few people are going to be qualified to make a valid judgement based on first hand experience

Perfectly true but then comments should be made with that in mind and particularly so when they seem to simply be using a sad situation to strengthen their case for their viewpoint (anti-americanism in this case). I'm no fan of the macho US attitude to war/'diplomacy' but these sorts of comments are akin to people using the spread of AIDS to justify their homophobic views.

as said earlier, as if what they tell us on the news is right,they haven't got a clue whats going on and will say anything to grab a headline,

the only ones who will know how it rolled are the ones who were there and the powers that put them there, the rest of us are better of focusing on Rooney and scanky prostitues, the press bunch of numpties

the rest of us are better of focusing on Rooney and scanky prostitues

At which point we should kiss goodbye to democracy and any illusions of the educated, well informed populace that should be the cornerstone of our societal values - FFS 👿

This sort of disengaged ignorant nonsense makes me very angry. Probably the sort of detached indifference that allowed Blair to be re-elected after lying his way into Ws Iraq war

I kissed goodbye to that notion a long time ago, one thing that the UK has lead the world in is replacing news with gutter journalism in order to distract us from reality.