[Closed] Working for free. At work.

What size engine is your Volution? 😀

It really gets my goat how people have to "prove themselves" by working overtime, especially the younger guys. I've always been very strict about not doing it as a matter of course, although when I work abroad then I don't mind it so much, as long as I get time for dinner and a couple of beers in the evening.

The point made above about being shown respect from your employer by not being expected to do overtime routinely is a very good point that I didn't consider before

I fully understand what people are saying if its an office where the work will be there in the morning to pick up where you left off...

But if you work in an engineering role in 24/7 production you can't just say "oh its 5pm I'm off home now" if something is stopped you stay until its fixed.

But if you work in a 24/7 environment, it isn't unreasonable to expect that there is 24/7 support shared across a number of people and shifts. So in theory (maybe not totally in practice) you should be able to clock off at 5pm

In fashion/retail head offices young Grads were expected to work till late some nights. We are talking girls often working till 10pm then going home through central London. They have to do this for a couple of years then they leave. Not sure if its as bad now but one retail group in particular was bad for this. The unspoken rule was leave early, this aint for you.

I always leave on time but then I start at 7.20am every morning.

If ^^above is the Police Ive heard that occassionally Specials nay be sucked into a 12hour (unpaid) shift.

Other side of the coin - any of the clock watchers on here expect to be allowed free time off to go to doctors appointments, dentists, the odd time you need to finish early for childcare responsibilities etc?

bamboo - Member
But if you work in a 24/7 environment, it isn't unreasonable to expect that there is 24/7 support shared across a number of people and shifts. So in theory (maybe not totally in practice) you should be able to clock off at 5pm

However as I approach retirement I can say I have been there done all of the above and got nowhere 🙄
Which is a good thing imo 😆

My daughter is a primary school teacher and works silly hours 🙄 Redkons she will quit in the next 5yrs before she is 40 ❗
Son works some really daft hours but like me can survive on a few hours sleep. He currently enjoys his work 😆

But if you work in an engineering role in 24/7 production you can't just say "oh its 5pm I'm off home now" if something is stopped you stay until its fixed

agreed, but that's what overtime was invented for

Expect people to do it for free, and their goodwill soon runs out.

I recall turning in a time sheet with enough overtime to double my gross one month...

ninfan - Member
But if you work in an engineering role in 24/7 production you can't just say "oh its 5pm I'm off home now" if something is stopped you stay until its fixed
agreed, but that's what overtime was invented for

Expect people to do it for free, and their goodwill soon runs out.

Awaiting the postal ballot paper re industrial action due to rejection of 2% wage offer.

I've done loads of free overtime. In my line of work we're paid to do a job, sometimes that overruns. Partly because of that I've now got a senior job which is pretty cool, by my standards.

I recall one job where 'going the extra mile' was a popular management slogan. It meant some late finishes for many as a result of over-optimistic productivity estimates. I did not like that job. But that was less the hours and more the conditions and attitude.

I'd be reluctant to put in unpaid time if I was on an hourly rate. But I feel fortunate that, aside from one job, I have enjoyed both hourly and salaried jobs and rarely felt taken advantage of. Sure, there are times when I've grumbled about all manner of things. In the end, I do the work because it leads to more expertise and more fun. And I would move if it didn't.

MrsT is in a senior management position, she finishes on the dot and expects her staff to do the same 😆
They do work a flexi hours system which is a use it or lose it system over a month...

I'm a home worker so it's dammed easy to let things creep and suddenly you are working 12 hour days all the time, so rule at home now is switch on at 08:30 switch off at 17:15 and 16:00 on a Friday if I can, if I'm out on the road and put in silly hours in the week I'll agree with my boss to take a day off for TOIL soon after, whilst its most likely not a 100% accurate accounting against my hours I have the latitude for late starts and early finishes if needed, well with the agreement if I have to work extra I will so it works for me.

Its been mooted across industry for us that we only get day rate when we are actually on a rig

Those in industry know full well you can wait for a bit before going offshore for what ever reason.

To which i replied - £2.00 an hour. I dont think so.

It will come but on that day ill get a job driving a bus

The clue is in the title, trouble is there are way too many desperate mugs who comply and fu@k it up for everyone else.

The American unpaid internship is the future 😆 f"ck the lazy "young" they deserve it right!! yeah let-em suffer, yeah at least it's not me....would you do it, oh no, no way.

I've done it all..

The best thing for me was going onto proper hours recorded flexi time, the simplest way to manage hourly rate, mark down the hours you worked and go from there.

I was taken off to a meeting room by my boss and his boss because it appeared to them that I was working short days (contractor) and skipping out when I wanted to. I turned it round to the fact that I was completing all that was asked, not been given more work despite asking and would they rather I sat and surfed the web for another 4hrs a week? Some people can't get their head around the difference between attendance and achievement. On the flip side I worked all the hours needed when it was needed.

These days I work flexibly from home, plenty of dilemmas compared to being in the office - how do I account for the time I was waiting for the boss to respond/make a decision. If I was in the office it would be simple. Today my 10am meeting was cancelled at 9am, if I had known I'd have been away with the bike today but as it is I'm not.

I did massive amounts of unpaid overtime last year to get the biggest project we've ever done out the door. It was tough, the. We got a change in management, he apologised profusely for the hours we'd worked bit said there was nothing he could do about the companies blanket no overtime policy.

2 months later the 3 of us that had martyred ourselves got called in and presented with 20% bonuses.

I still work late when its needed :p

Scaled that is fantastic but in alot of companies your boss would get the bonus and you'd get a team meal/night out..

the odd time you need to finish early for childcare responsibilities

This can't be refused if it's unforseen (child taken ill, carers car broken down, school shut etc.)

[url= https://www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants/your-rights ]Time off For Dependants[/url]

Parental leave is slightly different but it's something that not everyone is aware of.

[url= https://www.gov.uk/parental-leave ]Parental Leave[/url]

Other side of the coin - any of the clock watchers on here expect to be allowed free time off to go to doctors appointments, dentists, the odd time you need to finish early for childcare responsibilities etc?

I'm paid hourly for being in the office, sometimes for work at home when an undisturbed train of thought is required. If I'm not at work I'm not paid. I knock off between 5 and 5:30 most nights whether it's all done or not. It will still be there tomorrow and I value my mental health. The last occupant of my chair resigned and killed himself 18 months later. That is not going to happen for me.

I work 10 hours a week (average) as a contractor.

Off for a bike ride today. Same as Monday. Brewed beer yesterday.

The American unpaid internship is the future f"ck the lazy "young" they deserve it right!

There was some recruitment 'expert' spouting about this on the Jeremy Vine show yesterday. Developing an deep hatred for JV guests normally takes longer.

I only did silly hours for ridiculous money when I was starting out in newspapers - utterly shite wage and expected to cover evening meetings a few times a week. Wouldn't contemplate it now, it's just exploitation. But internships are even worse.

Other side of the coin - any of the clock watchers on here expect to be allowed free time off to go to doctors appointments, dentists, the odd time you need to finish early for childcare responsibilities etc?

I hear you. I've been to the Doctors twice in the last two weeks. My partner works part time, I one of the only people in her company. She does the same work as the others but has to work on her phone going to and from work and on her day off to enable her to get her work done. Madness.

What I have noticed throughout my working life-there are those people who stay late. They start late, they know when their boss gets in so come in at that time then stay longer so it makes an impression that 'Bob stays until the job is done'. Whereas if you are in the office for hours unseen your time might as well not exist. An old boss of mine called it 'being a sunflower' - always turning to face the sun. Doing everything insight of your boss etc. He was the only boss who could see results/value etc and not the politics.

At one of our competitors its frowned upon to leave the office until 2hours after the official leavetime. I was told by one that they literally have to sit there looking busy even though everyone has finished. Madness.

This can't be refused if it's unforseen (child taken ill, carers car broken down, school shut etc.)

Year before last I'd carried over 18days holiday. I had to use them all up last year (still carried over 6 this year).

Here there's a split with the senior people paid a company car allowance in exchange for not being paid overtime. We had a meeting with a senior manager to discuss the number of un funded side projects we were being given to do by him and those below him. His response was that all that work was optional, but then so were lay rises and promotions.

Within 12 months the group was 20% understaffed! The rest of us realised we could book overtime to actuall funded projects and mostly ignore the crap.

Its the oil and gas industry, not a charity.

At my last company we were expected to do reasonable amounts of unpaid overtime, I used to do a lot of site work so got most of it paid, others stuck in the office would often stay until 8 or 9 most days. I was lucky that my boss was pretty flexible and could rock up up late if I had an appointment or leave early if needed.

I've done about 8 hours over thus week. I'll get something for it though perhaps not pay. The reason is because it needs doing. The project is up against it, and only I can save the day. The key point is that I want the project and my company to succeed.

I'm away from home too which makes it much easier. I'd only be spending the time riding 🙂 as it is I still get to ride the commute.

I manage a national public service and have lots of staff. I go to some lengths to try setting an example of how to balance competing demands.

There are some thoughts that guide me:

1) [b]Technology[/b]: if we want, we are constantly accessible via e-mail and phone. I strongly disagree that this makes us more productive and (although I'm as bad as everyone else) managing your inbox is not working in my experience. Personally, I feel on edge when work e-mails come through at all hours... you know, that little flicker of the red light on your phone, or the "ping" as the e-mail arrives? That's just not good for humans. I turn my e-mails off at weekends and in the evening, unless there's a crisis when I'm on-call.

2) [b]"Culture"[/b]: In office work, people can find it hard to measure effectiveness and outputs are often hard to make visible - and so people turn to those things that are more visible, like working extra hours or dressing smartly. I really, really don't buy into this and actually take quite badly to people putting in extra hours when I can't see that they are productive - which is what I value most. This is one area where personally I think working parents (often mums) have it really licked: they have a drop-dead time and therefore no time to waffle, deal with fluff and are more productive from what I can see. We often talk about having a postive working culture, but what example do we set?

3) [b]Balance[/b]: The above should all help with balancing work and life, but often don't. I work all over the country, but try to set an example by doing a drop-off and pick-up (kids) in the mid-week and not working excess hours. I do often leave the house at 5:30am, stay overnight and return after the kids' bedtimes - but I make a point in my (open) Outlook calendar of putting "work from home" days in 1-2 days per week to compensate. I don't work fewer hours than when in the office, but I can at least post a parcel / get some loo roll during the breaks / faff on Singletrack now and again.

There's a lot of unspoken pressure to work in ways that are just not healthy or good for us physically, socially, for the family - nor for business in the medium or long term.

I have not once met someone who checks e-mails / overworks / does long hours who is productive, a good role model and happy.

The key point is that I want the project and my company to succeed.

This is the sort of thing that management have "leadership skills workshops" for. Hopefully this sort of enthusiastic dedication will not go wholly unrewarded...

🙂

johndoh - Member
Other side of the coin - any of the clock watchers on here expect to be allowed free time off to go to doctors appointments, dentists, the odd time you need to finish early for childcare responsibilities etc?

This is where an element of trust comes in, especially if you are a home worker. Personally I wouldn't "expect" it, but consider it a perk of my job that I'm trusted to manage my time this way. Likewise I'm not shy of my boss knowing that when at home, twice a week my "lunch hour" might be spent on the Turbo / bike. I do this because I'm being open and honest, but also because my job often results in being away from home and working in offices / hotels once I've arrived, traveling outside my core hours and some unpaid overtime or weekend working.

I don't clock watch per se, the above to me is give and take on a trust basis. I'm allowed the flexibility so I give back when it's needed by applying myself more than I'm contracted to do. On days like today though when I have a relatively relaxed day, am at home, and the Sun is about i will work my core hours because I know that starting early or working late tonight will not impact anything I'm working on now. Moreover, my boss knows that and isn't likely to phone me at 4 and demand 3hrs more work out of me at that time for the sake of it. In the examples above where that is happening it's pretty disgraceful if you ask me, pure exploitation.

Been there, done that - won't ever do it again. The only person who wins in that game is the person you are working for.

Looking back, I do find it quite depressing there is this 'expectation' you go above & beyond. Having read some of the replies on here it's the same old story - people working late, busy doing nothing, because they don't want to be the first to leave.

It amazes me that the people in senior positions can't see this.

It amazes me that the people in senior positions can't see this

Its normally snidey middle management (who have no depth of character or have lived life themselves) who espouse 'work hard play hard'

When are you supposed to play hard say?

BTW, I own a business and I do work late on occasion, sometimes I find myself working 13+ hour days (especially before I take holidays) but we rarely ask people to stay late to complete work and when we *do* ask, we don't tell people, we ask if they can possibly put in some extra hours.

It can be disappointing at times though as they are usually very quick to ask if they can leave early for whatever reason (ie, going to a gig, wanting to catch a train etc) and never make the time back up.

and never make the time back up.

Do they ask to leave 1-2hours early on a weekly basis?

No, but they get time back in lieu when they work late (sorry I didn't make that bit clear).

Then they are taking the pee'.

I used to work at a place where official hours were 9.00-5.30 but I'd come in at 7.45ish partly to avoid being squashed by London traffic on my bike but also I got to work flat out without disruption. I'd leave at 5.40ish. Almost everyone else came in at 9, 'tube problems' (9.15-25 was more the norm TBH) was regular and they'd stay till 6.30 before hitting the bars. I know for a fact that post-5.30 they'd just be there chatting mainly. However the boss used to rock in at 9.30 and leave at 6 and to her it looked like I was out of the door-type and they were committed.

Mental as I was the one doing BETTER than everyone else at the job yet that was overlooked as I wasn't a culture fit.

It's amazing sometimes how 'Job And Knock' can improve productivity - eg snow is expected, or there's a big footie match on, and everyone is told they can go home when the work is all done

I often wonder if every day should be run on that basis 8)

There are also little things that can help too, like when we shifted *everything* forward an hour to 7.45-1600 for all but a few who couldn't do it - overnight it halved commuting time for most of us, and gave everyone much better family time in the evenings etc.

My current company has an interesting way of dealing with this. The accepted office hours are 8:30am to 5:30pm but contractually we are on 8am to 6pm. What this means in practise is that everyone gets used to working 8:30am to 5:30pm and when asked to stay late they play the "I'm not paid for this and am going home card", the smug look on managements face when they can respond "yes you are, and technically you owe us 20 hours this month" is something to behold.

if you work for free youre a muppp. sorry to say but thats my opinion. its your life not theirs.

the hardest thing is managing the expectation of your manager. If they are people who work for free they probably expect you to. If you're over 30 you have a job not a career... cant recall who said that but in hindsight its pretty much right.

Flexibility is a two way street.

I work my hours because I'm paid crap, there is no reason to work more. I do my job well. When I was in science there wasn't working hours per se but you had to do the work. However, I like working in the lab and did 't have an issue doing long hours to get the work done. If you don't do the work you don't get published and you don't get better jobs. you have benifits though as it is a lot more flexable than an office job.

I won't work for free

Flexibility is a two way street

This. And if it isn't on either side, both sides could/should remove the privelege.

Most of the year I work roughly 40 hours a week. There are always a few weeks in the year however when the workload means I need to work 60-70 hours a week to get everything done on time. I do not mind this as I am rewarded with bonuses and can finish early when needed. I would not work for a company where unpaid overtime was expected every week.

The place I work at now is a breath of fresh air to be honest compared to other places. There is a lot of work to do, but I never feel pressured to stay late and get it done.
Generally if things need finishing off, then I will stay and get stuff done - I generally get in early as well to beat the traffic so easily do more than my contracted hours.
It's very much give & take - there's no issues with time off for medical appointments or nipping off a bit early on certain days and making the time up in the rest of the week.

The last place I worked was very strict in terms of working hours and any time off required lots of questions and justification.
I frequently used to work late, but if I came in 10 mins late there would be questions.
There was a real split as well between the engineers and other departments. The MD had a soft spot for the chemistry side of the business, as well as marketing. They would regularly waft in late & there were never any questions asked. Most of them lived very local and I found it very frustrating that they got away with it, given that I had an 80min commute.
I asked if it was possible to change my hours and leave at 4pm to get home at a reasonable time but was told no, you had to do 9-5. Nightmare place to work, to be honest.

The time before that, it was expected to be in work early & if you were leaving around 5pm nothing was ever said explicitly but there were always snide comments from the management about 'part-timers'. My boss also had a habit of asking late on a Friday afternoon if it was possible for me to come on at the weekend and help production, applying some real pressure and not really understanding that I might have other plans and that leaving it so late to ask might not be the best idea. I did help out when I could, but knocked it on the head after the boss called me from the 9th tee and wanted a progress update. We were always told that any weekend working would be paid back with time in lieu but we never received it.

I frequently used to work late, but if I came in 10 mins late there would be questions.

So I basically worked to rule after that – I recall one lunchtime when my boss came up and asked me to do something so I just told him I would start it at 1.30pm when my lunch hour finished. If I got to work early I would just sit at the desk doing nothing until the stroke of 9am and I was out of the door bang on 5.30 every night.

I didn't last long 🙂