[Closed] Why wont he debate the potential end of the Union?

already a feature of UK politics

Only in the last blink of an eye in relative terms. An unwelcome feature too.

Salmond would rip him a new arse and fine well he knows it. Ask binners, he loves Salmond. 😀

Yep - I reckon binners has a man-crush on Eck

In the last major TV debate between three party leaders, one Man stood out shining like a "bright yellow" beacon of hope.....then look what happened.........

Salmond's choice of words says it all....he's starting to worry and get frustrated and sees Tory bashing as an escape card. There is no need for anyone to fall for his traps, least of all Cameron.

Are you suggesting that he wouldn't be so keen to take on Miliband or Clegg - or are you lumping them in with "Tory"s?

FWIW, there has been a push for this debate for some time so it's nothing to do with "starting to worry and get frustrated"

The only reason CMD is not agreeing to a TV debate is because he thinks it would go badly for him and for better together. Trying to claim that he is keeping out of it because it's a matter for Scots to decide is condescending and untrue.
Mr Cameron said in The Independent "But this is not a debate between me and him. The debate should be between people in Scotland who want to stay and people in Scotland who want to go."
Yet the stories continue to gush from Conservative central office/ Westminster.

No I am recalling how Clegg was seen as a new brilliant light and a refreshing choice based on the first TV debate. Sadly, that impression proved somewhat short-lived. (My first para)

I am aware that AS has been trying to trap CMD for ages. But the arrogance and fear jibes simply highlight how frustrated AS is getting with the lack of traction. CMD is wise to ignore it.

Cameron's not stupid and so will avoid a debate. Salmond's not stupid and would love to make it a nasty Tory vs. lovely Scots debate. The former is a better politician than many on here think, and has outmaneuvered the latter. Again.

Rather than ask why Cameron has declined: Ask yourself why Salmond has pushed the idea: That's why Cameron has refused. Why do what your opponent wants you to do? I don't hear many neutral voices crying out for CMD's intervention up here in Scotland.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]I am aware that AS has been trying to trap CMD for ages. But the arrogance and fear jibes simply highlight how frustrated AS is getting with the lack of traction. CMD is wise to ignore it.
[quote=mogrim ]Salmond's not stupid and would love to make it a nasty Tory vs. lovely Scots debate. [quote=scotroutes ]Are you suggesting that he wouldn't be so keen to take on Miliband or Clegg

I'm sure Salmond could beat Cameron in a debate technically

Face it, Salmonds idea of a debate on the future of the union is more akin to this than any form of adult discussion

It was Better Together who claimed that Scotland would have no postal service after independence,that food would be more expensive,mobile phone roaming charges would be higher and that China would take the pandas back. Given that record they shouldnt get into debates with Rab either.

Don't forget the "fact" that iScotland wouldn't get the BBC

Cameron has set his stall out in letting the referendum go ahead [i]due to normal democratic process

Better Together, an organisation whose main tactic in pursuing a no vote was nick-named Project Fear by it's own members. Disinformation is their specialty. Sad that they have no positive contribution to make to the debate, always negative.

Cameron is a chick chick chick chick chicken! His refusal to go up against Salmond is nothing to do with him being democratic. A clear majority in a recent UK poll wants to see the debate. Maybe we will see Putin coming over as his proxy after Cameron's SOS call to the G8 President.

If Cameron thought he would look good in a debate, he'd be there.

Given he knows he won't, he'll be nowhere close to Salmond, in fact he's probably taking out an injunction against wee Alec coming within 200 yards of him.

Is Cameron a coward? Yes
Is he smart not to meet Alec? Yes
Will Alec try to find another way yo make capital out of it? Yes

Perhaps Cameron is keeping it all in perspective? It's not like the lights go out the minute Scotland leaves. I would guess that it has a very small affect, if any, on England, Wales and NI. Businesses will continue to do business between the countries etc.

Nah. The lights only go out when wee Alec orders the cross border interconnectors to be opened.

Serious, well semi, question.

Celtic v Rangers, if you accept the republican/loyalist view of Northern Ireland, is there any sectarian bias in the Scottish independence campaign?

Three Welsh clubs in the English leagues, not two.

mogrim - Member

The former is a better politician than many on here think, and has outmaneuvered the latter. Again.

Eh. Salmond presented him with a challenge with 2 bad outcomes, Cameron succesfully chose the less bad choice but Salmond is still merrily making political capital from it. If this is what it looks like when Cameron outmaneovres Salmond, I'd love to see the alternative!

Cameron also realises that he might have to actually comment on some of the terms of any break up, you know instead of suggesting we will end up eating our young in Winter a la Better together.

Celtic v Rangers, if you accept the republican/loyalist view of Northern Ireland, is there any sectarian bias in the Scottish independence campaign?

Has there been any suggestion of religious affiliation being significant in the independence campaign? Scotland is about 17% Catholic, the UK is about 9% Catholic. Scotland would probably end up without an established church.

Has there been any suggestion of religious affiliation being significant in the independence campaign? Scotland is about 17% Catholic, the UK is about 9% Catholic. Scotland would probably end up without an established church.

I know there hasn't which is why I am asking.

Celtic and Hib's are traditionally Catholic teams, Rangers and Hearts Protestant.

I am aware that there has always been tension, but never more than kicking crap out of a few on a Saturday night after the footie.

Just curious if there is a loyalist/republican - protestant/catholic parallel to Ireland? Or is it Highlands v Central belt, or again indifferent? Or whether the devolution vote is separate from ideas of identity?

Eh. Salmond presented him with a challenge with 2 bad outcomes, Cameron succesfully chose the less bad choice but Salmond is still merrily making political capital from it. If this is what it looks like when Cameron outmaneovres Salmond, I'd love to see the alternative!

Cameron gave Salmond the referendum Alec didn't want: no (unwinnable) devo-max option, just a simple (and potentially winnable) yes/no. He then set up a local group to run the campaign and give him a justifiable excuse to avoid having a direct debate. So yes, he outmaneuvered him, twice.

[quote=mogrim ]
Cameron gave Salmond the referendum Alec didn't want: no (unwinnable) devo-max option, just a simple (and potentially winnable) yes/no.
History has just been re-written 😆

I know there hasn't which is why I am asking.

Celtic and Hib's are traditionally Catholic teams, Rangers and Hearts Protestant.

I am aware that there has always been tension, but never more than kicking crap out of a few on a Saturday night after the footie.

Just curious if there is a loyalist/republican - protestant/catholic parallel to Ireland? Or is it Highlands v Central belt, or again indifferent? Or whether the devolution vote is separate from ideas of identity?

Sectarian voting has not been a major force in Scotland for 60 years AFAIK. The conservative and unionist party used to harvest protestant votes in the West of Scotland, but you're going back to the 1950s there.

Thanks,

I guess the last thing anyone needs is a group of whoever looses deciding the Irish approach is the way forward! It doesn't take many!!!

meibion glyndwr anyone.

The vast majority of the Rangers support will vote no, As they love the tub thumping rule britannia stuff.

Celtic support, I'm not so sure there is a majority either way, they certainly wouldn't want to be thought of as being pro union though, that's for sure.

History has just been re-written

Really? How? Cameron didn't have to allow a referendum, he could have ignored the SNP's demands indefinitely. He's taken a gamble - he thinks he can win a yes/no referendum, and by doing so seriously dent the SNP's power.

Did Cameron give a referendum?

Did Cameron give a referendum?

Basically, yes. The UK government transferred the necessary authority to the Scottish parliament.

I am aware that there has always been tension, but never more than kicking crap out of a few on a Saturday night after the footie.

A little worse than that - there have been murders: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/may/15/gender.uk

That was a long time ago now, it's much better these days but I still wouldnt want to end up in the wrong colours in certain parts of Glasgow. Mostly these days it's a few violent drunken fights in the streets and a rise in domestic abuse cases after old firms games, but we won't be seeing many of those for a while.

@konabunny, I know the older history, but meant in last few years.

mogrim - Member

Really? How? Cameron didn't have to allow a referendum, he could have ignored the SNP's demands indefinitely.

Yes, the prime minister of this democratic nation could in theory have refused the will of the people as demonstrated in a fair and legal election. But it would look quite bad on his report card.

I'm still waiting for the Better Together campaign to give a good reason why Scots should consider staying in the Union.

So far we have had border guards, potential bombing to protect English interests, we'll be out of EU, out of NATO, no BBC, and a list of other spurious and laughable propaganda. Are they really sure Lord Haw Haw was executed at the end of WWII, because he seems to have been reincarnated?

If we had a democratic government in the UK, then maybe it would be worth preserving.

[quote=epicyclo ]I'm still waiting for the Better Together campaign to give a good reason why Scots should consider staying in the Union.
I believe the Secretary of State [s]Against[/s] For Scotland is supposed to be giving 20 reasons sometime today.

epicyclo - Member - Quote
If we had a democratic government in the UK, then maybe it would be worth preserving.

I bet one of them is Doctor Who

Can't think of many others

We get the government elected by the process we have. It's about as democratic as anything else - though some sort PR might make it more representative than the FPTP system currently in operation

Had this discussion today with my (Spanish) colleagues - and they hate PR, and also complain the current government is "undemocratic", despite having been freely elected following the rules laid out in the Spanish constitution.

Basically the problem is that you vote a party list, not a person, which just entrenches party power even further. The current Madrid mayor was #2 on the list (the previous mayor is now the Justice Minister), the current Madrid Autonomous Community president inherited the post after the #1 decided to retire from politics (sort of...) Etc.

Yes, the prime minister of this democratic nation could in theory have refused the will of the people as demonstrated in a fair and legal election. But it would look quite bad on his report card.

Yes and no - AFAIK there's no UK wide mandate for offering Scotland a referendum. You could spin it both ways, basically.

If [the Tory Party] sometimes seems English to some Scots that is because the Union is inevitably dominated by England by reason of its greater population. The Scots, being an historic nation with a proud past, will inevitably resent some expressions of this fact from time to time. As a nation, they have an undoubted right to national self-determination; thus far they have exercised that right by joining and remaining in the Union. Should they determine on independence no English party or politician would stand in their way, however much we might regret their departure.

mogrim - Member

Yes and no - AFAIK there's no UK wide mandate for offering Scotland a referendum. You could spin it both ways, basically.

You could try, til the UN taps you on the shoulder and asks for a word about that self-determination thing you're committed to...

You could try, til the UN taps you on the shoulder and asks for a word about that self-determination thing you're committed to...

Waiting for them to tap the Spanish government on the shoulder, they haven't yet - and Spain's not even a member of the Security Council.

Still an ongoing situation, that, no final decisions made.