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Because it's easier to appeal to the basest instincts of human nature than it is to appeal to the finest.
The legitimisation and promotion of greed as something to aspire to rather than something to be ashamed of.
The promotion of self interest as the ultimate goal of the individual.
The fact that blame is easier than understanding.
And, ultimately, the fact that some people are just unpleasant ****ers who actively enjoy watching other people suffer.
Personally, I despise them all.
I shan't be nice to them in order to 'foster a greater understanding'.
I will not attempt to salve their consciences and doubts about the suffering they have caused, the people they have disregarded and the misery they have inflicted on others.
To all those who once voted Tory but have seen the error of their ways:
If you want absolution, pray.
If you want forgiveness, look elsewhere.
Elements of this thread sum up why I really can't be doing with left/liberal people. If you vote Tory, you're a *. If you don't agree with me, you're a *.
That and the complete over reaction to everything and anything. I've seen Boris called a murderer on my Facey today. He isn't really, is he?
You really don't help yourselves sometimes you know.
I didn't vote btw
Elements of this thread sum up why I really can’t be doing with left/liberal people.
...
You really don’t help yourselves sometimes you know.
Yet your opening gambit before anyone else had really had time to reply was that you wanted "to piss people off." You want to intentionally piss people off (which of course is clearly an admirable course of action) then you can deem to take the moral high ground when you're successful?
There will always be a minority giving the rest a bad name, but the bulk of those lefties and liberals that you can't be doing with just want to have an adult conversation without the other half resorting to insults.
If you vote Tory, you’re a *. If you don’t agree with me, you’re a *.
These two things are not equivalent.
Yet your opening gambit before anyone else had really had time to reply was....
...tongue in cheek
You may notice I stated that I didn't vote?
There will always be a minority
There are plenty in here
…tongue in cheek
Ah. Sorry, it's late.
You may notice I stated that I didn’t vote?
Then your opinion is moot.
There will always be a minority
There are plenty in here
That's not how "minority" works.
Then your opinion is moot
Not really.
Working away from home, missed chance to register for postal vote, could have made 250 mile round trip if I wanted to. Knew our area (Derbyshire Dales) was a guaranteed Conservative seat, ergo couldn't be bothered
Going to bed, will contribute more (or less some might say) tomorrow
So you said "didn't vote" when you really meant "couldn't vote." Are you just trolling?
molgrips I find that idea interesting, that left/right leaning is based upon an individuals notions of "us"...
A lot of the current Conservative linked media seems to rely on a large amount of "othering" to help the reader identify societys baddies...
My area in the NE is a recent convert to true blue. Mixed constituency but mainly ex-industrial towns and one of the poorest areas in the UK.
Our local MP is local, but privately educated upper class wet lawyer type chap. Very much in the tory boy mould.
I think it's a combination of a couple of things:
- Some sort of deference that British people have for privately educated, male, posh sounding lawyer types. They just seem "right" for being the MP, even if they basically have inhabited a different planet to 99% of their constituents for their entire life. See also the vitriol that gets directed at people like Nicola Sturgeon who have the misfortune of being a) a woman and b) from a working class background.
- Cynical (mis)use of jingoistic crap by the Tory party to present themselves as the defender of the working man and protector of England. My MP never misses a chance to be seen with a poppy, union jack, spitfires. He picks on popular local themes that hark back to a better day, and parrots those back to people.
The right focus on making the pie as big as possible.
simly wrong - thats the propaganda but the tory party exists for only one reason - to keep as much power and wealth as possible in the hands of the powerful and wealthy
They use the power of propaganda to achieve this. they control most of the media
I'm basically centrist. The actual thing I cannot stand in politics is the childish black and white good guys bad guys pantomime.
The current shower don't look like much any kind of Tory that I could recognise. They're just the comic anti foreign cooperation UKIP party in disguise.
Back to the OP. Lots of reasons. Most people (now more than ever) vote for a personality and not policies. This time around it was Big fun boris or boring useless Corbyn.
But mainly tribalism. As molgrips post.
Don't forget most people are impressionable when young. They'll make their mind up and choose their tribe and the discussion is then over.
Regardless of whether their tribe changes under their nose. See boris, bnp. Blair, 'Tory lite'.
The opposite of the Tory's sense of entitlement is the idea that Oxbridge/public school/titled people are the 'natural born leaders' and working class people defer, 'look up' to them and vote for them. If you want to get on and be accepted (and financed) you have to become like them and then you become them (they might even give you a title for your efforts) and then there might be a change of government but they're only kidding, there's no change.
Or you might be an aspirational voter: rich people vote tory so if I vote tory people might think I'm rich or I might become rich. Bit like the Beatles' dilemma, driver but no car.
Workers voting for bosses, renters voting for landlords, anyone voting for austerity, we even have low paid workers attacking people with those damned silly socialist ideas. If I were Lord Sainsbury, all this would allow me to sleep very peacefully in my bed.
posh sounding lawyer types
Genuine question. I can only think of Blair that fits this, then all the way back to Lloyd George. Who else?
(Actual PMs)
Don’t forget most people are impressionable when young. They’ll make their mind up and choose their tribe and the discussion is then over.
Another genuine question. Assuming this to be true, why?
Ive changed my mind on the Union for example and I don’t qualify as young. Is it really impressionable youth, or is it lack of exposure to different ideas at some other level.
The give away is that as people get older they tend to vote Tory a lot more than they did when younger. When young you are more (or less) equal in terms of wealth, position, home ownership etc,. so see the world in a more open way and more willing to think about impact to others as those others are more similar to you (along the lines of Molgrips "us")
That changes as people get older and they start to only care about themselves and do anything to ensure that nobody gets hold of any of their money (now they have it) and that selfishness leads to bitterness about immigrants, a labour policy to help others and all other things that they perceive will be reducing their advantage or ruining the status quo.
Covid19 has made it very clear that the very people who voted for a party who was openly damaging the NHS are now caring about it. Reason - because they or their immediate family may rely on it more than they thought
Or we could all just accept that we have quite a lot of horrible ****s in the UK (mostly England)? Just a thought.
Little England
Small town England
Perfidious Albion
The current shower have done more long term damage to our economy than covid.
The Winter of Discontent was the winter of 1978–79 in the United Kingdom, during which there were widespread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises, following the ongoing pay caps of the Labour Party government led by James Callaghan against Trades Union Congress (TUC) opposition to control inflation, during the coldest winter for 16 years.
And gulf war 2 I should have said.
The venom that I often hear from the left supporters is often far worse than what I hear from the right.....
All a shower of ****s.
Agree entirely with Molly. Right wing: small Us, left wing: large Us
It's obviously not just that simple, there are folk who vote on particular policies and world outlook, international, or financial whatever, but the Tories represent (to a great many folk) Normality, people who think like they do.
There's a reason they're the most successful political party in the world.
Some interesting posts here, not the offensive bigotry btw. Why stw allow the hate speech on their pages is always beyond me, it is completely against stw rules and ethos, it has become so normal here that it's as if people don't even see it,which is exactly what happens when you allow hate to fester. People rant about tabloids spreading hate while spreading hate on a modern form of media.
Back to the op, it's complicated, basic natural instincts, media consumption, tribalism, education infrastructure, immigration, aspiration, oneupmanship, fear of rocking the boat, many are living very good lives and don't want it to be worse, trust, personality politics, a want to rock the boat, nothing changes, etc etc.
It's okay to vote for whoever you like and you + your reasons should be respected. Everyone is a part of the solution/problem from beginning to end, you can't go around pointing fingers then stop when it suits.
Kerley the opposite to what you have said is also true, as people get older they have accumulated more, usually through their own labour, skills and a bit of luck. They don't want to see that taken away, they've worked for it. That's why they tend more towards conservatism. It's easy when you're young to be more idealistic and wanting equal shares for everyone, especially when that means something someone else has is given to you, it's a bit when sharing the pie out equally means letting something you've earned go to some one else.
Of course there's also people at both extremes, those that have inherited everything and the genuine dole dosser who expects everything to given to them but they are the extremes not the majority.
So you said “didn’t vote” when you really meant “couldn’t vote.” Are you just trolling?
Are you Laura Kuenssberg?
I could quite easily have voted if I'd driven home.
After seeing some of the wonderful names being thrown about above I wasn't sure whether to post but Id just thought I may as well. I have voted twice in my life so far one for remain and one for the last general election. I voted for them because I thought they would be the best party for what I saw would be good for me and my family, whether that's correct decision who knows (doesn't look so good at the moment). Looking at all the policies I would probably be LibDem voter but there was never a chance of them getting a majority. I didn't vote for Labour because I am from a long line of family that are ex forces including me and wasn't keen on Corbyns stance on the military. Also although I believe everyone should have the same chances available to them in life to achieve what they want, I don't believe (rightly or wrongly) that it should all be on a level playing field and handed out to everybody. I think some of the policies i didn't agree with so just went with what I felt. Whether I have made a mistake we will find out but I am happy to admit when I am wrong (current situation)and get on with it. What I will happily say is I never voted for them because I am racist,selfish or because I am rich or want to be rich as some have stated above. One thing I will say is that you will never find me calling people with different views all the names that appear above just because they have different views and ideas.
Good answer ifra.
Ultimately, the vast majority people vote for who they think will look after them, and their immediate family best.
If you’re rich and the opposition are saying they’ll increase taxes and look to take money away from you then you won’t vote for them.
If you’re working class and have seen an influx of Eastern European trade men come in and you feel it’s impacted how much work their is for you and what you can charge, you’ll vote for the party who want to help sort that.
If you’ve lived happily under previous Tory governments, with a reasonable job and don’t use the NHS/public services much then you may vote for the status quo.
If the leader of the opposition wants to make radical changes to things and you think things are OK as they are, you won’t vote for them.
There are many, many reasons that people vote Tory and as touched on above, calling people names won’t change their minds.
Tories tend to have posh accents, which the British are conditioned to obey.
Plus trade unions and stuff that happened 40 years ago.
I’ve avoided this thread for obvious reasons but after listening to Hancock squirm and weasel his way out of answering a simple question on the today program I can only surmise that folk vote Tory because they are happy to be lied to......or they may just be ****s
The question as to why some people are left, right, libertarian or authoritarian I find fascinating and would love if anyone can recommend any good books/links on the subject.
I think for me the reason many people vote Conservative is this:
The just-world fallacy or just-world hypothesis is the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person, to the end of all noble actions being eventually rewarded and all evil actions eventually punished
It would be interesting to hear people on here who vote Conservative whether or not they agree/disagree with that hypothesis.
*shakes head*
You're all as bad as that lot
*points*
You all claim to be lefties because you empathize with other people, then start a thread talking about how you completely fail to understand another viewpoint?
Tory view - small government, low tax, successful businesses, more jobs. The belief that if the economy does well (because you take limited amounts out of it in tax) then the worst off at the bottom are better off because they have good jobs. Believes this is better for the economy because you're letting the free market find the optimum rather than trying to manage it.
Labour view - big government funded by tax to redistribute that wealth in the belief that it's more efficient to level things out than wait for the trickle down. Believes this is better overall for the economy because more people with some money spend it more than a few people with savings.
Hey look! I managed to make the distinction without having to call anyone a racist or stupid!
Because FPTP is a crap voting system and too many earning average to excellent wages and/or running their own business still think Labour would tax them to the hilt.
You never know though, Boris' balls-up up in the care homes during COVID-19 might have killed enough elderly to change things around 2023.
Working away from home, missed chance to register for postal vote,
I sent my form in as a PDF copy. No problem. Just drop your local lot an email and check that's ok, otherwise just get a form and mail it. It's not difficult.
I’m basically centrist. The actual thing I cannot stand in politics is the childish black and white good guys bad guys pantomime.
This is probably the bulk of the population, and a big factor in the lack of proper engagement in politics.
And the abusive name calling on here just entrenches the problem. If your only response to people holding a different opinion to you is to crudely insult them, I'd suggest that the problem may not be with them?
From a policy point of view, Tories and other right wingers are about small government, they want to do the minimum for the country to run, and everything else is up to you. Want a house? You have to get your own money and pay the market rates. Too expensive? Not our problem, you sort it out. Need medical treatment? Well you should have medical insurance, not our problem if you don't. You look after yourself, we don't.
Left wingers on the other hand believe that it IS the government's job to look after people if they need it. Can't afford a place to live? Don't worry, we've got some cheap places here. Need medical help? We've got you covered. And so on.
Both sides have advantages and disadvantages. The right wing approach means less money is taken from you in tax, and the government interferes less in your life. It means you have more flexibility to make more money. It also in theory means that the market will adapt to deliver the best services. The downside is that people can exploit each other with impunity, and market forces can reduce for example salary where supply is high.
The left wing approach can end up costing lots of money and tax, and being very inefficient. But on the other hand people should have a decent wage, somewhere to live, and medical cover etc.
People whose lives are going ok tend to want to vote for the right wing approach, because it's working for them and they don't see why their money should be taken away to give to other people - they don't see the need to help others who fall outside of their locus of 'us'. The thing you hear most often is 'well I did alright through guts and hard work, why can't everyone else?' Unfortunately this is usually a rhetorical question and they tend not to accept the actual reasons why other people can't.
Most people in the country actually accept and want the left wing approach, however in the national slanging match that passes for media in the right wing press tends to be less principled and is happy to sling more stickier mud at the left, which panders to people's understanding of the downsides of the left wing approach. For many people, engagement with the issues is so low that they aren't able to pick apart the mud from the actual policies. And we don't receive any kind of political education in this country to allow people to critically asses what they are hearing and reading.
Lack of political education in the UK is an absolutely enormous issue, in my opinion. How can you expect people to make a good decision when voting when they aren't educated about the issues?
I am from a poor North East working class background and heading towards 60, i was right in among Thatchers "adjustments" and the Miners strike. I was a paid up Union Member (AUEW) for over 20 years.
I have done well by my families standard, Apprenticeship went onto a Degree,own Business, big house and all that stuff.
I have never defended poor Union practice but its interesting that Germany the most unionised country on the planet does so well.
People talk about hate speech on here and yes I hate Thatcher and the current crop of playmobile nationalists. They simply want control via power derived from wealth transfer, property etc - said this before on here they are the natural development of The "landlord"
So inshort my Socialist/capitalist/responsible approach to politics remains the same even at my age.
tinas, well, that's the fiscal standpoint, but that's only one dimension.
Another genuine question. Assuming this to be true, why?
Ive changed my mind on the Union for example and I don’t qualify as young. Is it really impressionable youth, or is it lack of exposure to different ideas at some other level.
just look at music taste and fashion as another example
for the bulk of folk, their decisions on many many things tend to be quite fixed by around mid twenties
they've picked their tribe, and that as they say is that
nothing beyond pure tribal instinct to stick with their choice until death do them part
from then on, look for corroborating evidence of a good choice, ignore the evidence of a bad choice
My parents never made it out of the late 50s, 60s and just the merest dash of 70s. Not bad people, simply didn't keep up with the times. Britain still Ruled The Waves, The Empire was still a thing (although it was dead in the water), the Cold War is on. Ze Germans were Ze Bad Guys but we gave them a good boshing, now it is the Ruskies. John Wayne films. Dress sense, music, just the same. Always voted the same way and that way is not coincidentally the same as their parents always voted. The Reds are commies, can't never vote for them. No changes. No surprises. Challenge the world view? Good luck.
From a conversation with my sister-in-law: We'd be thousands worse off, seriously.
This was from the interior of her recently extended 5 bed house, wine room was part of the new extension, there's 3 of them in the house. They also own a flat in Islington.
So for some it is purely about them and their own personal situation!
This is quite an interesting article as are a load more on the subject.
Parliament is now just a soundbite tribal shit show.
Instead of trying to point score so they look good on tv there needs to be reasoned debate.
It's all so black and white.
There has to be a policy both sides agree on broadly but they wont ever stand up and say so and suggest an amendment. They will stand there and say it's a load of toss so they get a nice little snippet on the news to look good to the more extreme of their demographic.
I have never defended poor Union practice but its interesting that Germany the most unionised country on the planet does so well.
Yes. Perhaps the union relationship with the government is simply done better. Leading to better outcomes all round.
That and the complete over reaction to everything and anything. I’ve seen Boris called a murderer on my Facey today. He isn’t really, is he?
His refusal to sack Cummings has seriously undermined the lockdown and will undoubtedly result in more infection/deaths.
Johnson must know this but has made the calculation that Cummings is more important to him than the lives of the British people.
Does that constitute murder? Maybe, at the very least it’s manslaughter by gross negligence
Those who bemoan the insults here - have you reported any posts? are there posts you've reported that haven't been acted on?
Binners has half got it.
It's also because Ed Milliband looks funny eating a bacon sandwich.
Why do people vote Tory?
Because they think it will help them to be one step ahead of the next man.
The Winter of Discontent was the winter of 1978–79 in the United Kingdom, during which there were widespread strikes by public sector trade unions demanding larger pay rises, following the ongoing pay caps of the Labour Party government led by James Callaghan against Trades Union Congress (TUC) opposition to control inflation, during the coldest winter for 16 years.
And gulf war 2 I should have said.
Sorry, yes. I was thinking of the three day week, which occurred under the Heath government. So we can say that industrial unrest and war aren't something that could reasonably be associated with one particular party.
I’m basically centrist. The actual thing I cannot stand in politics is the childish black and white good guys bad guys pantomime.
This
At the moment I feel lost; there is no one to vote for. Can't vote Tory at the mo, definitely couldn't vote Corbyn. The Lib Dems were a waste of space.
What we need is a normal Centrist party. The two main parties have been at the extremes (at least from my point of view). Things may be changing
Because ultimately the majority of people are centrists and when presented with a Tory party that's actually very right wing but painted by the media as right of centre and a Labour party that was fairly left wing but painted by the media as communist they voted for who they were told to. Even I as a pretty committed socialist realise that people won't stop voting Tory until there's a centrist Labour party that will at least do some good rather than no good at all.
Also, apparently Jeremy Corbyn was "dangerous":
People fail to understand the connections between capital, the state and society. They imagine some sort of greasy pole that you might slide up or down on they do not see (and therefore not understand) that every aspect of our society is divided by class based on the ownership and control of capital and nothing to do with your car, clothes, private schools or how big your debts are.
A failure to understand class leaves people floundering and arguing (well informed by the press) the relative merits of different millionaires in Westminster and 'politics' is expected to die off for 5 years between. That creates passivity and that in itself is good for the perpetuation of the system.
Older people might be persuaded that their assets are best protected by the tories in power. The only rapid economic growth in the post-war period was under Labour governments, Tories have always impeded growth. And what savings you might make on the tax, you more than spend on the private provision of goods and services. If you add up all the taxes and the cost of healthcare in the US, they pay more than we do and get less for it but, most importantly, there's profit involved.
The Tories and New Labour crushed the unions, people grow up without the organisational experience of unions and being accountable (very evident on Labour benches), they lack an alternative perspective on society and so are almost incapable of challenging the tory logic and instead of evidence and arguments they join in the populist campaign hurling insults and name-calling, which are not items for discussion. I remember in the 80s someone scrawling on a 'help the police' poster 'beat yourself up'. Now it could be support Johnson's and Cummings' destruction of the welfare state, attack Corbyn! Getting workers to attack socialists shows how supremely successful this system is in producing people who collaborate and connive aggressively in their own oppression.