[Closed] Why did Better Together choose a Londoner to lead them?

wanmankylung - Member

Ben - there is a major difference between saying that someone is not Scottish enough and saying that someone's background is unlikely to lead to a reasonable degree of empathy with the people of Scotland.

My point is this - Better Together could have got someone in whose Scottish credentials and background aligned more with the people they are wanting to vote their way.

Since that day my national identity has become more complex and rests on being British as much as being Scottish. I still don't consider myself English though, despite what I was told.

Yes, though I have the added complication of being an American dual national as well. For me, identity is different to nationality, and neither is much connected to whether I think a Scotland should be independent.

Maybe wanetc, Would have only been happy with a parochial person who had never left Glen Mcboggle?

one is racist and the other is "class war", it's all in the nuance

It might be "class war" in the infantile trotskyite sense of the term, but it is precisely because independence as it is being proposed does not serve the interests of working people which makes it a pointless counterproductive exercise.

If it served the class interests of Scottish people and of those of working people throughout Britain then it would worth supporting, imo.

Racism is a divisive destructive ideology, class consciousness is vital if ordinary working people are to be empowered.

If it served the class interests of Scottish people and of those of working people throughout Britain then it would worth supporting, imo.

I agree with this.

Racism is a divisive destructive ideology, class consciousness is vital if ordinary working people are to be empowered.

class consciousness pigeon holes people and creates them and us, the very thing that reduces social mobility

+1

I'm not interested in social mobility ! Well not in the context which it is generally offered.

There is no point giving working people a leg up to the ruling circle if everyone else stays at the bottom of the ladder.

And every leg up requires someone else to be pushed down. The solution isn't to rearrange the seating so that someone else/different sits at the top table, it's to provide everyone with significant roles and rewards in society. Without either privilege or denial of basic rights.

Off to a kibbutz then Ernie !?! 😉

At least Loretto must have better Highers Econ teachers than Linlithgow Academy. Darling understands how a balance sheet works.

big_n_daft - Member

class consciousness pigeon holes people and creates them and us, the very thing that reduces social mobility

Class consciousness is an inherent part of human nature.
It doesn't create anything.
It is not inherently good or bad.

And English people pretending to be Scottish is not always funny.
[img] [/img]

So stop it.

Ronnie Corbett is Scottish !

Class consciousness is an inherent part of human nature.

Of course it isn't.

ernie_lynch - Member

Ronnie Corbett is Scottish !

I know.
And Ronnie Barker is funny.
😐
I should have posted a picture of Russ Abbott really.
🙂

Of course it isn't.

All animals are aware of their status and power in relation to those around them, how that power can affect them, and how far and when the boundaries should be pushed.

Call it what you like, it's part of us.

erm, ok

"Class consciousness is an inherent part of human nature."

class is a natural phenomenon and not a social construct? really?

Yes, though I have the added complication of being an American dual national as well. For me, identity is different to nationality, and neither is much connected to whether I think a Scotland should be independent.

Sadly it matters to some, albeit a tiny minority.

One individual I know refers to everyone who doesn't meet the standards as "not of this land" and wants them all to "go home" among many many other things.

I'd be offended if I didn't pity the person in question so much. The level of bitterness and bigotry said person has to live with must make life a bit shit.

The only depressing thing is said individual is not the only example of that type of behaviour I've encountered. What I will say is that it's no worse than in England, it's just that it's me on the receiving end instead of some other foreign type.

I should have posted a picture of Russ Abbott really.

Oh crap, I though he was real. Who do you think I was gonna model my image on in the event of a yes vote so I fit in. 😡

konabunny - Member

class is a natural phenomenon and not a social construct? really?

Class may well be a social construct - the consciousness of how we fit into the word around us and how the perceived status and power of others affects our lives is not.
🙂

Should the OP not have started the thread with "now I'm not racist"? Though better would have been "now I'm not a simple bigoted Scottishista but". What a pity that those that want a yes vote have those like the OP undermining their arguments.

Bigotry will be reserved for a Free (cheap) Yorkshire! In a free Yorkshire it's not yer class, yer house or yer car but size of yer bank account (mattress) that sets you apart.

Sadly it matters to some, albeit a tiny minority.

Yes. I think it's a reaction to what they perceive as being second-class citizens. It's the same attitude that blames "the English" for everything. My hope is that independence will help with that kind of attitude in the long run.

You have got to be joking. Post any successful Yes vote bigots won't stop being bigots. Everything will still be the fault of the English, if that's who they previously blamed.

Bigots who choose scapegoats to blame everything on are never satisfied.

Or do you really believe that in a separate Scotland no one will ever have anything to moan about ? In which case I'm deeply impressed by your faith. Will the problem of climate change have been resolved ?

Oh sure, there will still be idiots - and of course there's the whole sectarian thing which needs tackling. But without the excuse of being "ruled by the English" there will be less justification for that kind of view.

The interesting and wonderful thing about this referendum is how much it's engaging with people who never normally bother to vote. Radical Independence have been doing sterling work in the poorer areas, and signing up people at job centres to vote and things like that. For a change, people think their vote actually matters so they're getting engaged with politics - hopefully that engagement will continue after the referendum.

But without the excuse of being "ruled by the English" there will be less justification for that kind of view.

You're suggesting rational thinking on the part of bigots/racists 😀 Have you ever met one ?

It's probably going to be even worse. The English will be accused of deliberately damaging Scotland - every problem associated with Scotland being separated from the rest of the UK will be the fault of the English. Among other things Scotland will be economically dependent on its huge neighbour, and just to rub it in there will be a picture of the queen on bank notes which people use everyday to remind them. Scots won't even get a vote on real issues which effect them. How unfair will that be ffs ?!

And of course the English will still be crossing the border settling down marrying people etc.

Good luck if you think la-la land will be bigot-free.

Oh sure, there will still be idiots - and of course there's the whole sectarian thing which needs tackling. But without the excuse of being "ruled by the English" there will be less justification for that kind of view.

In your previous football team line up ben why were these 'idiots' not represented on the yes team? You were at pains to put the BNP on the no side?

I can see it will be hard to win an argumemt where the UK is apparently to blame for Scottish bigots.

Any divorce will be messy and Salmond has a scapegoat for some time to come. When he tried to get Darling to back him in the TV debate I thought he was going to say "kneel before me and kiss my ring Darling"

Nice to see rUK being referred to as The English...

Fortunately I was eventually put right and informed that being born in Scotland, living my whole life here and knowing it was my home didn't make me Scottish, because my parents are English

Growing up in England with one Welsh parent I was reliably informed that I was Welsh. However on going to uni I was equally informed that I was English. Now after living in Wales for a long time I'm not at all sure. No-one wants me it seems 🙂

Well we love you 😀

In your previous football team line up ben why were these 'idiots' not represented on the yes team?

Because they haven't organised themselves into an organisation and registered with the Electoral Commission.

I definitely don't think everything will be rosy after independence, but I think standing on our own feet, bring responsible for our own decisions and mistakes, will be good for the national psyche.

I definitely don't think everything will be rosy after independence, but I think standing on our own feet, bring responsible for our own decisions and mistakes, will be good for the national psyche.

It will certainly be interesting to see how well Scotland does vs rUK....

kneel before me and kiss my ring Darling

I think he needs to kneel behind him for that

A ridiculous post for the op and subsequent attempts to defend it. A view not born out in Scotland I'd say as the majority bar the most rabid bigots are happy that anyone with residency gets a vote(as it should be)

piemonster - Member

kneel before me and kiss my ring Darling

I think he needs to kneel behind him for that

bearnecessities: the OP on there is the artist formerly known as glupton, amongst other handles. I thought everybody knew that ? Are you banned George ?? Surely not !!

Hels - what are you talking about? My name is Joe.

It was a crafty plan to draw people like yourself from the woodwork.. they hoped intelligent yes voters would think twice about aligning themselves with people like you 😉

Really "Joe" - then you need to have a word with that George character, and stop cutting and pasting exact quotes from his FB page ! One of which in particular appeared several hours on there before here. Cute that you don't realise how obvious that was though !