Sorry if its been done before.
I am both a motorist and a cyclist, just so happens I was in my car today when witnessing two completely incompetent cyclists,
The first guy, I wasn't sure to laugh or cry, Straight through two reds, one of which was through a notoriously quick light change junction, He mad me laugh as he didn't look like he cared, saying that II'd be less worried If I too was wearing my full face DH helmet or even Motorbike helmet, He was on his 1994 Raleigh Tank of a bike, Obviously this guy believes jousting with the traffic is the way forward.
The second guy was kitted up in nice kit/bike, all black, like he thinks he's a ninja, the numpty goes through the same red light, As I drove past I politely asked him to reconsider his habits,
"**** OFF"
I replied "You went through a RED LIGHT!!"
He was angry.
The current infrastructure no doubt favors the motorist, sometimes causing cyclists to make dangerous reactions but It seems as though some (Majority) cyclists don't help the cause.
*Whose?
Nope Who's.
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Neither. We just have x% of us are idiots and their choice of transport isn't a good indicator that they are one or not.
Poor cycling may not be dangerous.
If it is, it's unlikely to put anyone else in danger.
Poor driving may well be dangerous and may well put someone else in hospital.
Therefore poor driving is a LOT LOT worse.
If you added up the number of times cyclist do stupid things (dark clothes and no lights at night, jumping red lights, cycling on the pavement etc) and the number times motorists do stupid things (like not indicating, driving aggressively, not looking before turning or changing lanes etc) then purely from observing stuff whilst cycling in my local area (London) I would have to say that cyclists would be way ahead. Which is a shame, and probably not a popular thing to say on a mtb forum, but that's how I see it 🙁
Poor driving may well be dangerous and may well put someone else in hospital.
I've always thought this but nobody in a car actually wants to hit a rouge cyclist.
and probably not a popular thing to say on a mtb forum, but that's how I see it
Which I guess is the problem, many cyclists don't see or even want to see their wrongs.
The question is largely irrelevant because there is a 'spectrum' across both groupings that ranges from 'considerate' to 'cock'.
However, when you look at it from the point of view of who is more likely to kill or maim who, then I know who ought to be more careful.
Again, driving a car is the one thing most of us do daily that gives us a fair chance of killing or maiming others if we get it wrong. With this in mind, some of the things I see beggar belief (being on the phone primarily, but other more ridiculous things as well).
Poor cycling may not be dangerous.If it is, it's unlikely to put anyone else in danger.
Poor driving may well be dangerous and may well put someone else in hospital.
Therefore poor driving is a LOT LOT worse.
Unless the poor cycling leads to the driver taking actions that cause further accidents.
Like a friend of mine who, driving a wagon, took avoiding action a few years ago and that avoiding action led to him killing someone else.
I see a LOT more bad driving than I see bad cycling.
BUT then I see a lot more driving than cycling, so that makes sense.
Of the cycling that I do see, I see quite a lot that I know some people would describe as "bad cycling", whereas others would call it "textbook" - especially contentious issues like taking the primary or riding two-abreast.
I think the trolls are worse than both.
There are fools using every form of transport...after 14 years of London commuting I'm no-longer surprised by anyone else's behaviour on the road (stupid or not).
Wouldn't go as far as saying the 'majority' of cyclists are doing us a disservice though...
I've always thought this but nobody in a car actually wants to hit a rouge cyclist.
RACIST!
Really its a Cycling community and even here we have to blame cyclists.
Both groups can exhibit poor driving but the ones in the large metal boxes, as al notes, are the ones who generally hurt folk.
Though STW seems to beat the statistics curve as we even have cyclist causing death [s]facts [/s]anecdotes now
Was this on the way to trail centre?
especially contentious issues like taking the primary or riding two-abreast.
Indeed sick of explaining why folk do this but it does annoy everyone.
Who's worse, [s]Cyclists[/s] [b]people[/b] or [s]motorists?[/s] [b]people[/b]?
FIFY 🙂
I'm not affiliated in any way with other cyclists.
So I will call a dick a dick regardless of their means of transport. They don't get speical consideration because they are on a bike like me. Therefore it makes no difference that this is a cycling forum.
Shermer75
You don't include speeding in your things that motorists do. Does that shift the balance of towards motorists? I realise that speeding isn't considered dangerous by most drivers per se - only in particular circumstance, but perhaps some of the things you are pulling cyclists for they would not see as dangerous.
... and London is different. More bikes, fewer cyclist also drive. Much busier, less tolerant.[edit] An exaggerated experience compared to that for the rest of us.
... finally, if you look for it, you will see it. I see stupid driving every time I go out, but it is the norm and so washes over me a bit.
Who's worse, Cyclists people or motorists? people?
FIFY
😀
London is different. More bikes, fewer cyclist also drive. Much busier, less tolerant.
In my experience it's a lot MORE tolerant of cyclists than most places.
it makes no difference that this is a cycling forum.
I dont know why I thought this place would be pro/sympathetic to cycling
Shuffles off to football website in wonderment at whether they like football
Try PistonHeads:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/forum.asp?h=0&f=174&mid=0
I like cycling. Does that mean I should excuse the bad shit cyclists do?
In life, generally, I strive NOT to be biased.
Think about it though - bad cycling is really visible (RLJ etc) but bad driving is less so.
How many RTCs involving cyclists are caused by cyclists? Are there stats? I bet the majority are caused by drivers - especially those causing injuries/deaths.
2 guys after my own heart, well maybe not the last guy with his swearing at ye, as I wouldn't have done that.
But I would have simply explained that if every cyclist follows the rules of the road, the rules of the road will never change. It won't ever be seen as a problem.
Non compliance is the way forward, basically anything goes as long as yours and others saftey isn't put at risk (And there's nae polis about! 🙂 ).
TJ seems to think that the majority are caused by motorists. About 70% IIRC.
But rules are rules. You don't get to make them up. There are very few instances where you really need to break them to stay safe on a bike, or even do anything different to a car driver.
1) Filtering
2) Crossing the line at lights to get in front of the queue (but NOT jumping it ie going through the junction)
3) Giving way to traffic joining a DC at a sliproad
I get annoyed by poor cycling too, and more so aggressive interactions with pedestrians, albeit caused by some of the stupidest cycle lane placement I've seen. Partly because it's another stick someone will use to beat all of us with, partly because I just wish we were all a bit more chilled and but mainly I don't want to see people get hurt
But equally annoyed by the double standard that ignores so much dangerous driving. As above "dangerous" cycling is more obvious because (a) it is obvious that the consequences of, what would be a minor prang in a car, would be more serious, so people get nervous (b) it's being judged as if the cyclists was a car.
How many RTCs involving cyclists are caused by cyclists? Are there stats? I bet the majority are caused by drivers - especially those causing injuries/deaths.
Ooh stats? Allow me:
The City of Westminster Council found that [b]drivers were to blame for 68 per cent of collisions between cyclists and motor vehicles[/b] in the borough in the past 12 months. It found that cyclists were at fault for only 20 per cent. In the remaining 12 per cent of cases, no cause could be found or both parties were to blame.
...
The research also revealed that there were 133 collisions between cyclists and pedestrians in the past three years. Of these, 60 per cent were caused by the pedestrian, while 40 per cent were caused by the cyclist.-- Sauce: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3758677.ece
Cars don't kill people, people kill people.
Bikes don't jump red lights, people jump red lights.
In short, some people are dicks.
Hm. If both parties are to blame then the cyclist is also to blame innit.
50/50!
In short, some people are dicks.
Edit: [i]*Started to write out the Team America speech and thought better of it*[/i]
Hm. If both parties are to blame then the cyclist is also to blame innit.
Well no. But okay... then you [i]could[/i] express it as "drivers were to blame for 80 per cent of collisions between cyclists and motor vehicles... cyclists were at fault for only 32 per cent" but that doesn't really make it any clearer 😀
Who's worse, Cyclists or motorists?
Is the motorist in a queue waiting to overtake?
[quote=GrahamS said]you could express it as "drivers were to blame for 80 per cent of collisions between cyclists and motor vehicles... cyclists were at fault for only 32 per cent" but that doesn't really make it any clearer
You could, but it would also be inaccurate given "no cause could be found or both parties were to blame"
bad cycling is really visible (RLJ etc) but bad driving is less so
Agreed IME most motorists jump the red light but only for say 2-3 seconds after they change or as they change where as a cyclist doing this is much more visible to stationary cars.
GrahamS Interesting link but what do they say in the car v driver issue?
They take the side of cyclists then?
molly I am not saying every cyclist is an angel it was more that I would expect some understanding/empathy/sympathy of the issues faced from a cycling community what with us all being cyclists and all that.
If both parties are to blame then the cyclist is also to blame innit.
yet you did not mention this is true for car drivers [ nor that they cause the most] on a cycling forum whilst being Unbiased
Its obvious why they do this or we would end up with more than 100% - its still clear that cars are responsible for 4 x the accidents bikes are but hey dont mention that bit ...stay unbiased fella 😉
You could, but it would also be inaccurate
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and it adds up to 112% which would confuse me /anyone else reading them who understod %
Football payers would be amazed you can go above 110%
Interesting link but what do they say in the car v driver issue?
They take the side of cyclists then?
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how many drivers speed, park on double yellow, use phone, drink, smoke, etc etc.
and how many cyclists break the laws relating to them,
On that basis drivers break far more laws than cyclists so are worse
molly I am not saying every cyclist is an angel it was more that I would expect some understanding/empathy/sympathy of the issues faced from a cycling community what with us all being cyclists and all that.
I've got plenty of sympathy for cyclists what with, you know, being one and all. And I don't just mean a drive-to-the-trail-centre type, one who uses his bike for transport a lot.
However, blame is due where it's due. And as previously mentioned, sometimes cyclists are dicks, and they need to be called on it just like eveyrone else.
yet you did not mention this is true for car drivers [ nor that they cause the most] on a cycling forum whilst being Unbiased
Cos it was ****ing obvious based on the rest of my post. You're being very idiotic. Are you trying to prove I'm anti cyclist or something?
[quote=molgrips said]However, blame is due where it's due. And as previously mentioned, sometimes cyclists are dicks, and they need to be called on it just like eveyrone else.
Yet it's only bad cyclists who give all cyclists a bad name - strangely the same principle doesn't seem to apply to bad drivers.
I'm certainly not about to suggest there aren't cyclists who are dicks - you only have to look at the videos posted by some of the caped crusaders - but in the overall scheme their impact on road safety is minuscule.
sometimes cyclists are dicks, and they need to be called on it just like eveyrone else.
Agreed - the "cyclists are all angels" attitude isn't helpful
BUT...
Neither is the [i]"cyclists are lycra-clad scofflaws"[/i] attitude which seems prevalent everywhere - even on cycling forums.
Speaking for myself, when I [b]ride[/b] on the road I try to obey the law and if I don't then it is either ignorance or because the circumstances leave me little sensible choice.
When I [b]drive[/b] on the road I knowingly and willfully break the law on almost every single trip.
Yet it is the bike riding I get criticised for. 😕
Who's worse, Cyclists or motorists?
Sorry if its been done before.
No you're OK, no one has ever has brought up this subject before in the whole history of the internet.
On the drivers don't try to kill cyclists point I have had a driver deliberately pull out of a side road and stop dead in my path blocking the bus/cycle lane I was in so that I had to jam all on and skid sideways into his door he claimed he had seen me coming. I have had a guy on too occasions swerve into me at a bottle neck for cars as I go into the cycle lane seen what I believe to be the same driver do it to others there. Today I was in a single lane splitting in two at lights I was in the left but needing to turn right as I looked and clearly signalled right a car behind accelerated up and cut right as close to me as he could when he had had a good 10 meters of lane he could safely have moved into . This last in the week I decided my cycling moto was to be "dress like a Xmas tree act like a Buddha."
I do believe that a great many drivers find it very hard to come to terms with the mixed traffic on roads.
You're being very idiotic. Are you trying to prove I'm anti cyclist or something?
Why the insults when I post about what you said?
Others have said pretty much the same as I have get stuck in 🙄
Graham sums it up almost every driver breaks the speed limit but only cyclists are dicks.
