Just dropped daughter off for gymnastics coaching and for the second Friday running we have antivax protesters on the main roundabout in Ilkeston.
Various placards along the lines of "Stop Covid passports", "My body, my choice", "Don't suffer the children" and my favourite "Stop the great reset"
A fair few people beeping their horns in support.
Again, I’m missing a reason (almost) any English speaking adult couldn’t read that ?
The fact that a huge proportion have a reading age below nine.
So on further investigation turns out it was actually a beautician she visited on the Tuesday. On the Wednesday the beautician tested positive but rather than let her clients know direct she passed there numbers to track and trace. Inbetween the gf went to work (in a care home), visited her 85 year old mum, and came round to mine.
We are meant to be going away on Tuesday and she plans to get a pcr on the Monday (she’s did one today which I expect to be negative). What’s the likelihood that a pcr 6 days after exposure would pick up the virus? Obviously it’s legal for us to go, however possibly not a great idea to be going on holiday with a potential plaque carrier!
A fair few people beeping their horns in support.
was there actually a big "honk if you support us" banner?
I can imagine the honkers may be indicating their disagreement with the sentiment, or even their opinions of other drivers lack of lane discipline as a result of trying to read said placards.
was there actually a big “honk if you support us” banner?
There was, yes.
I expressed my disagreement with their position through the medium of mime/gestures.
Just dropped daughter off for gymnastics coaching and for the second Friday running we have antivax protesters on the main roundabout in Ilkeston.
Various placards along the lines of “Stop Covid passports”, “My body, my choice”, “Don’t suffer the children” and my favourite “Stop the great reset”
A fair few people beeping their horns in support.
Well beeping horns might not mean support ...
This is sort of the growing issue with where we are presently with the pandemic though and why I think the public side of information and data needs to be well written AND correct. (Non of these lazy lies where it's good enough for the thicko's because it's too much trouble to write clearly)
People I know (multiple ones) have been trying to convince me of this "great reset" or variations on it etc. for ages but this always goes back to trying to show how our "trusted sources" are lying to us.
Indeed previously perfectly rational people are now posting stuff about Chem Trails and how we are being turned into drones with vaccines containing chips that will be used to control us physically through 5G. They don't actually have ANY evidence for any of these conspiracies ... indeed they don't even bother. Rather they spend their time and energy trying to show where "official" sources are lying and therefore all these conspiracies must be true.
Various placards along the lines of “Stop Covid passports”, “My body, my choice”, “Don’t suffer the children” and my favourite “Stop the great reset”
I don't know about a 'great reset', but some of this lot need to be restored to factory settings so the malware can be purged.
AA
The fact that a huge proportion have a reading age below nine.
Please post actual evidence, otherwise it's not fact its just your belief. Just posting it saying its a fact doesn't make it fact any more than people saying vaccines contain a nanotech chip that will allow the government to control us through 5G.
Ironically, that is a perfect example of being too lazy to post actual facts because it's easier than actually writing the facts. Its the same tired old circle of people writing lazy and incorrect facts then when asked why they resort to "well a huge proportion of people in the UK have a reading age under 9".
Regardless of how many people claim vaccines contain chips to control us through 5G or claim a HUGE proportion of the UK population have a reading age of 9yrs or below there is no proof for either.
The Guardian apparently has a "reading age" of 14 ... and you claim a HUGE proportion have a reading age of 9 or under yet where are all these mysterious people? Noone can ever produce them, just like the daily fail can never find the Schrodinger's immigrants who are simultaneously stealing our jobs and claiming our benefits.
I know lots of people wouldn't read that article ... not because they can't but because they chose not to and the two are NOT the same thing.
I don't know anyone (including dozens of ESL people) who would struggle with reading and understanding that article given the motivation to read it. Some of the ESL people might struggle with some context if they don't know who "The Normans" were for example but I'm sure they'd work out they were someone around the UK in 1080.
What exactly is it in this article that 'a huge proportion' of adults in the UK won't be able to read?
This claim just doesn't have any credence ... there are numerous fake studies such as the one by JFK or the 2003/2011 government skills surveys that are fundamentally flawed.
If you take say the 2011 Skills for Life Survey there is no mention whatsoever of any financial motivation for people taking the questionnaires to gain a high mark. The whole survey is useless unless people were suitably motivated to gain a high mark.
Weirdly (or not if they want to bias the survey) they identify Personal characteristics associated with weak skills .. yet they don't actually have one that is "doesn't give a shit about the survey".
I'd love to see the results of same questionnaire but offering say £25,000 for each person that scored higher on literacy than a OECD Level 3.
I don’t know about a ‘great reset’, but some of this lot need to be restored to factory settings so the malware can be purged.
The problem is that the trojan for this is introduced via a phishing attack that is made possible because of the poor and false information that is published on official or trusted sites.
You can do a cold reboot and wipe all the storage but the same people will download the same malware
Please post actual evidence,
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/2011-skills-for-life-survey
Here you go. Obviously things may have improved substantially in the past decade, but, well, I'm not massively hopeful.
Anyhow, this is getting very off-topic, so I'll shut up now.
Please post actual evidence, otherwise it’s not fact its just your belief.
I see the evidence in school leavers every year.
Regardless of how many people claim vaccines contain chips to control us through 5G or claim a HUGE proportion of the UK population have a reading age of 9yrs or below there is no proof for either.
You really are off your rocker aren't you!!
Uncalled for
After martinhutch ^^^ this thread and so many others are de-railed and become echo chambers for the STW (same ten w$$k**s) who post on every topic.
I'll continue to pay the full print and digital subscription to support the mag despite the free loaders who vent/articulate on most topics without making a meaningful contribution to support the site they use to express their views.
"Its all kicking off" The Sun version..
"Well that escalated rapidly" The Telegraph version...
same ten w$$k**s
Not the first time you've said that either. TBH I wonder why someone who holds that view comes back.
What are your views on lfts now?
Sadly we seem to have a pandemic of people subscribing to fantastic conspiracies that is overlapping the very real pandemic of Covid.
Here you go. Obviously things may have improved substantially in the past decade, but, well, I’m not massively hopeful.
Why would you even believe this? Have you actually READ that study and the methodology?
More importantly, how does this study relate to your personal experience? Do you actually believe you could go into your local pub or supermarket and offer some randomly selected adults a lifechanging sum of money if they could read a "reading age 14" guardian article and you could genuinely find A HUGE proportion that couldn't? (Let alone age 9?)
I read that study years ago ... and guess what in the meantime I haven't met a single adult that couldn't read something the level of a guardian article and understand it given motivation. (With the exception of people without their reading glasses or advanced Alzheimer's etc.)
The whole selection methodology and actual data is missing from a nearly 300 page document I can't find how the test group were paid for this or what motivation they were given for scoring well or scoring poorly. More importantly I can't see any evidence at all they didn't just make the numbers up working backwards form the result they paid for.
The whole implied "validity" of this is it is published by a government department.
This is the issue with the "Great reset", anti vaxers , covid deniers etc. etc.
They are all people with their own experience... show them these results and it doesn't match their experience. The report is published by what SHOULD be a trusted source but no-one knows where these illiterate people hide between surveys, they weren't in our schools, they weren't in our pubs or supermarkets or even in the queues for Jobcentre Plus certainly not a HUGE proportion or people who simply chose not to be able to read English.
Ironically enough these placard wielders are able to read the sources of information themselves .. write their own placards... but when they go to "trusted sources" such as the NHS websites the excuse for false and inaccurate information is "you can't read above age 9 so we simplified it for you".
As I said earlier people don't trust the NHS or its associated organisations principally because they have been lying and publishing false data for years and it doesn't match people's actual experience.
At the time the NHS was saying everyone in A&E got seen in 4 hours I had several waits longer than 8... Obviously we weren't the only people in the waiting room and I find it hard to believe we only did this on "exceptional" days so we were far from the only people who saw these lies. I'd be pretty certain that our experience was far closer to the normal than we were just randomly unlucky.
Regardless the figures were fudged and falsified and the (then) PCT still continued to claim it saw 100% of the people in 4 hours. For millions of people it's simply a lie showing you can't trust anything these sources publish.
People see that .. it doesn't match their experience. (Like this study)
Its the same pattern ..what should be a "trusted site" but experience shows "they" (supposed trusted sources) are making up data and facts. Essentially, if my local A&E or my NHS waiting list are being falsified why should I trust anything else from the same source?
Then we wonder why people don't trust what should be trusted sources of information and instead increasing numbers subscribe to the great reset or antivax or become covid denier's?
It's starting to get pretty scary with the numbers of "previously normal people" who are openly subscribing to whacko conspiracy theories and Covid and disinformation from trusted sources seems to have a causal relationship, at least that is what they claim.
People I've known for years have started posting pictures of "chem trails" on their FB profile (multiple and not connected people) and going into rants about being "tortured being forced to wear a mask for a fake disease".
Every time they bring this up and I try and act polite the arguments are always based on showing that trusted sources are lying. They (obviously) have no evidence of chemtrails or "5G chips" in the vaccine simply that it's as credible as anything published on a NHS or government website.
Having spent far too long working with people selling fake products to companies that want fake products and pay for fake studies to justify the fake product selection I don't need to resort to fantastic reasons like lizard men or 5G chips in vaccines... it's almost always either simple money or laziness.
The NHS lied for years about waiting times and waiting lists because their KPI's meant their funding would be cut even further. They put up misleading facts because they are too lazy to write them properly and can resort to a fake study to justify claiming a HUGE proportion of the UK population have a reading age of 9 or under.
The government said masks increase infections because they didn't have any having squandered the emergency PPE stocks.
You really are off your rocker aren’t you!!
Let's see we as a society routinely lie to children about facts they can easily check themselves throughout school and then through what should be trusted sources of information such as NHS publications and then later in life when they subscribe to whacko conspiracy theories and don't trust what they are told we profess to wonder why?
The "whole covid thing" is rapidly becoming just another conspiracy theory for many people. Those people with placards outside schools really have no idea WHO they can trust for information but they have made up their minds who they can't trust.
Not that Covid isn't bad enough but it's extremely worrying that at some point probably not far in the future we are going to be hit with something that makes Covid look like a nice pathogen in comparison but increasing members of our society will view it as another conspiracy and refuse to believe.
I read that study years ago … and guess what in the meantime I haven’t met a single adult that couldn’t read something the level of a…
They are all people with their own experience… show them these results and it doesn’t match their experience.
“Own experience” is easier to understand, even when it isn’t (and simply can not be) the whole situation. I haven’t heard anyone speak German for the last two years. That doesn’t mean I should go off on a rant at people who point me to information about how many German speakers there are in the world (or even in the UK).
You do make a very good point about motivation (and application) being as, if not more, important than “ability” (in itself hard to isolate). In the larger population, getting people to engage is a big challenge. But that does not mean that information does not also need be made available and understandable to those with lower “ability”, especially when it comes to health matters.
Looks like i didn't make the "same ten w$$k**s" awards list this year....
I will try harder and study those on the list.
Stevexc
This is the issue with the “Great reset”, anti vaxers , covid deniers etc. etc.
They are all people with their own experience… show them these results and it doesn’t match their experience.
Even your own arguments make no sense, you think your experience trumps those studying something and you blame anti vaxers for relying on their own experience. You really do not make any sense.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZWS83SjKFU
I'll do my best to leave it here as I can't discuss things when people make no reasonable attempt at logical thought.
kelvin
“Own experience” is easier to understand, even when it isn’t (and simply can not be) the whole situation. I haven’t heard anyone speak German for the last two years. That doesn’t mean I should go off on a rant at people who point me to information about how many German speakers there are in the world (or even in the UK).
With the exception of Covid travel restrictions etc. that isn't so surprising.
What is being claimed is a HUGE proportion of the UK can't read and understand anything above a reading age of 9.
I don't expect to wander into my town 'in normal times' and pop into a pub/supermarket etc to hear people speaking fluent or otherwise German because noone is claiming a HUGE proportion of my town speak German.
I know lots of people who would say they can't read say the Guardian article on the Roman finds ... yet they are perfectly capable of reading technical release notes that require a detailed and extended vocabulary. They may not view it as pleasurable but they can read it given motivation.
Ultimately the issue here is the excuse as to why it is acceptable to publish knowingly incorrect or incomplete information simply by invoking some "a huge proportion of UK adults have a reading age of 9 or under".
It's not that I think literacy is great in the UK and shouldn't be improved, it's that it shouldn't be used as an excuse to publish factually incorrect information because ironically those people with placards outside schools and in shopping centres etc. can actually read and understand well enough to see the information is false.
I might wish to question their critical thinking but they obviously can read and spend a considerable amount of time doing so on conspiracy sites that all link back to proving the trusted sources are lying.
I miss Richard Feynman he could explain things so even I could understand them.
What is being claimed is a HUGE proportion of the UK can’t read and understand anything above a reading age of 9.
I don't think that's the claim. Of course they can understand more, it doesn't become incomprehensible, just less comprehensible.
I miss Richard Feynman
This Theoretical Physicist’s favourite Theoretical Physicist.
Anyway, back on topic, the U.K. has its own Delta variant now. It has two additional mutations and this gives it enough edge to push aside standard Delta. Other countries are now reporting this strain to the global database called GISAID. Two to watch are Denmark and Germany.
U.K. leads the charge, since we grew it. But other countries will follow behind. I don’t subscribe to 5000 cases per day by Christmas. I do subscribe to waning immunity and little protraction against delta infection with serious winter pressure on the NHS. Vaccines are going to stop you going to hospital (mostly). They won’t improve your 5G reception.
About 1/6 people have had the infection in the U.K. based on serology for nucleocapsid antibodies. That ignores the waning effects of loss of immunity.
Am I one of the ten luck ones in the echo chamber? Just asking 🙂
Why would you even believe this?
You know one of the people you are arguing with about educational attainment is a teacher?
Not disagreeing with some of your other points about poor communication and the distrust it's caused
Don’t mention teachers, you’ll set Steve off.
U.K. leads the charge, since we grew it.
Go us!
The maddening thing is, as this mutation spreads to other countries what happens there will be cited as evidence that we have taken the correct route through this stage of the pandemic… even though this variant exists because of our chosen route through this stage of the pandemic.
They won’t improve your 5G reception.
I is disappoint.
Morecash
You know one of the people you are arguing with about educational attainment is a teacher?
Not disagreeing with some of your other points about poor communication and the distrust it’s caused
I'm trying VERY HARD not to mention teaching despite their rudeness.
Sadly this is where disinformation and lies start but the teacher's don't get to chose the curriculum and more than the person who updates the NHS website saying ALL patients saw a doctor in A&E is deciding what to write.
I have an issue with science teachers defending teaching incorrect facts but I'm trying to leave it at that.
The real issue is the lack of trust in what should be trusted sources "for the rest of us" (people without access to scientific/medical journals) and the very poor quality of information from them.
Some of these are just plain lies to get continued funding (the 4 hours) and some of these are lazy lies because it's not considered worth the effort writing accurately based on this "huge proportion of people with a reading age of 9 or below)
It seems to be the combination and timing that has sprung these whacko conspiracy theories for Covid. We remember the 'accidental' lack of reporting of deaths in care homes because they were "in pillar 2" or the we have more than enough PPE ... and obviously it would have been better had that not happened but increasingly the conspiracy theories seem to be more based on exploiting nuanced errors.
To try and put that into an artificial sentence "they are trying to tell you this but look at this pub med article where it says something different"
One I remember specifically was poor wording on vaccine effectiveness that was turned around to imply if the vaccine prevented 80% of infections it was therefore killing 20% of people.
Regardless of reading age I'm amazed by the people who repeat this BS.
My reading of this is the conspiracy theories have all jumped on the Covid bandwagon. What used to be completely whacko is through covid disinformation becoming increasingly mainstream. Whereby it used to be amusing now its people who don't believe Covid is real and its all a plot so not only are they holding up placards but they are going to public places, unvaccinated and taking no precautions whatsoever.
The person I know who was ranting about masks being torture for a fake Covid never expressed any previous interest in 5G or chem trails... now they are all integrated into his anti-covid rant with a Great reset where basically Bill Gates manufactured covid so we could all be "vaccinated" with 5G chips that somehow get "activated" by chem trails...
Someone else I know posted a few weeks ago with some contrails above their house asking something like "is this normal" ... then followed a load of comments about chemtrails and how it's activating the chips we were injected with by someone. The whole thing is nuts but it all seems to be based on people of questionable intent looking for inaccuracies on "trusted sites" to use to seed mistrust!
These people obviously CAN read .. that is where they are getting their information and they can obviously read well enough to see where official sites are not being completely true either through laziness or design.
Obviously the person who posted the contrails pic can read ... she also quite quickly jumped on the chem trails bandwagon making me feel this was the initial purpose. I just didn't respond but its very worring mid pandemic that I'm seeing increasing people buying into the whole Covid is fake conspiracy.
@stevexc - I think you're on to something. Flat earthers often have very good rebuttals to experiments that show the earth is round(ish) e.g. invoking a good understanding of refraction to counter the "masts disappearing over the horizon" experiment. I wish the conspiracy theorists would go back to flat earth, where they can be safely ignored, and leave COVID alone.
Don’t mention teachers, you’ll set Steve off.
Too late!
Sadly this is where disinformation and lies start but the teacher’s don’t get to chose the curriculum and more than the person who updates the NHS website saying ALL patients saw a doctor in A&E is deciding what to write
Eh?
The 'special' people here in Ipswich are protesting about Astra Zeneca being used for children. I'm aware that this is a lie as they all get Pfizer or Moderna due to research by the likes of @TiRed and his number crunching mates.
There was also a reference to using Google for research which is all well and good if ones search terms are valid and not looking for evidence to back an all ready held view.
even though this variant exists because of our chosen route through this stage of the pandemic.
Variants are constantly emerging around the world. Much as I hate this government and their handling of the pandemic, I'm not sure we can pin this new variant on Boris just yet.
Eh
Indeed.
Eh?
Well I think I understood what stevextc is saying, although my reading age is probably quite low.
As I understand it stevextc is claiming that the government uses the national curriculum to spread lies and disinformation, but that he isn't blaming teachers for that anymore than he blames the NHS employees for deliberately releasing allegedly false waiting times. HTH
Personally I think he is exaggerating. But I have to say that I was frankly stunned by the barefaced lies coming out of Matt Hancock's mouth especially at the start of the pandemic.
So I don't think the point he is apparently trying to make is totally unreasonable.
As I understand it stevextc is claiming that the government uses the national curriculum to spread lies and disinformation
Thanks for translating, that's paragraph one sorted, is this linked to the bit about science teachers teaching "incorrect facts" in paragraph 2. Not sure I have the stomach to go through the whole post so feel free to ignore me!!
is this linked to the bit about science teachers teaching “incorrect facts” in paragraph 2.
Well I would have thought so, what do think? After all it's you who has a PhD and teaches, I haven't been back to school since I left with my CSEs, so you can imagine what my reading age must be.
Well I would have thought so, what do think?
I honestly have no idea what he's rambling on about. Not sure reading age is important in grasping his gibberish.
ernielynch
Well I think I understood what stevextc is saying, although my reading age is probably quite low.
As I understand it stevextc is claiming that the government uses the national curriculum to spread lies and disinformation, but that he isn’t blaming teachers for that anymore than he blames the NHS employees for deliberately releasing allegedly false waiting times. HTH
Personally I think he is exaggerating. But I have to say that I was frankly stunned by the barefaced lies coming out of Matt Hancock’s mouth especially at the start of the pandemic.
So I don’t think the point he is apparently trying to make is totally unreasonable.
Well not a million miles off...
I don't think the government is deliberately using the sciences national curriculum to spread lies and disinformation as such more they just don't care of it does.
But I have to say that I was frankly stunned by the barefaced lies coming out of Matt Hancock’s mouth especially at the start of the pandemic.
Well this and other whoppers are 'lately' ... At times it almost seems to be a game in cabinet as to who can tell the most blatant lie and not crack up in front of the cameras and press.
The one that strikes me is the one where Boris stands in front of the press and announces (whilst looking into the camera of the video camera of the press association) "There are no press here".
What I'm trying to say is that when people get very obviously false information from what they believe are trusted sources they lose all trust in "trusted sources" and that is a very bad thing in the midst of a pandemic.
but that he isn’t blaming teachers for that anymore than he blames the NHS employees for deliberately releasing allegedly false waiting times.
Personally I think he is exaggerating.
See that's the point ... "We see most people within 4 hours or most people waiting for elective surgery get it within ..." is stretching the truth - Using the word ALL or saying 100% is a bare faced lie.
So if I go into A&E, wait 8 hours in a room with a load of other people who all get seen in turn that's a whole load of people who know absolutely that the claim of ALL and 4 hours is untrue. If they'd stretched the truth and used the word "usually" .. or even if they'd said "most" or "over 90%" I'd be more inclined to think "I must have been unlucky".
I might start to wonder the 2nd and 3rd time but I wouldn't know absolutely that they were lying.
OK, it's not great if they are stretching the truth (especially if you're the one waiting for A&E/surgery etc.) but the part I find disturbing is they don't even try. It's the equivalent of the Boris "no press here".
This isn't new, I remember the A&E from 10 years ago... but we weren't in the middle of a pandemic then, we didn't need people to believe and follow the advice whereas increasingly people are now doing the exact opposite.
This isn’t new, I remember the A&E from 10 years ago…
It's new to me. I've never heard of anyone waiting 8 hours before being seen in A&E. I'm not claiming it has never happened but I doubt that it is a routine occurance.
Stuff happens. Sometimes a car journey that should take 15 minutes takes 2 hours.
I would have thought that you might have come up with a better example of governments lying.
Edit : I've just checked and it appears that 4 hours is the target. I can only assume anyone who waits 8 hours, for whatever unexpected reason, isn't considered urgent.
Steve, start your own thread on this please. I have no issue with you asking questions but you are IMO derailing this thread.
What I will say in response to you is that we're at ~ 90% of the adult population double jabbed. Admittedly according to .gov figures. If anti vax was a massive problem we wouldn't be where we are.
I have waited more than six hours in A&E and i was sure as **** urgent.
Got seen when i blacked out though so it kind of works.
the claim of ALL and 4 hours is untrue.
I haven't seen that claim made for years, so I'd appreciate maybe the links to them being used to start a separate thread
Actually now I think about it wasn't it covered quite widely a couple of weeks ago that these targets were being massively missed?
Actually now I think about it wasn’t it covered quite widely a couple of weeks ago that these targets were being massively missed?
Yep
This is from 2 weeks ago :
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58904557
It doesn't provide a particularly good example of the government lying to the people imo.
The claim is made that due to Covid causing a lack of face-to-face appointments the workload on A&E depts has increased.
Is that a lie? Does it provide a reasonable explanation as why there are conspiracy theories surrounding the vaccines?
My wait was around an hour last Wednesday afternoon. I was there 4 1/2 hours in total. Present with the right symptoms, be seen quickly. Turn up for something trivial and 4 hours would be about right based on my observations that day.
