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I have been thinking about this a lot. I have followed the hints from those closer to the SNP than me and seen the split that was hidden between the "fundamentalists" and the "gradualists" and between those for whom independence is the only thing that matters and those who have other things they feel important as well
Its obvious Salmond think folk were out to get him and the party machinery was used to do this and its clear he has no proper understanding of 21st century sexual politics.
Clearly there is a load of suboptimal decision making ( at best) around his investigation, arrest and trial and clearly he feels a man wronged and wants to lash out at those who wronged him. But for the sake of the country, the party and the independence project he MUST not make this into a battle. One thing above all else the public hate is split parties and this is a critical moment for the SNP. IMO they are in danger of going down the labour road of factional infighting and more attention being paid to internal party politics than external issues and how they appear to the public at large
Sturgeon may have made errors here but I simply do not see her as being malicious and if he damages her reputation where it is not needed the party risk losing a tremendous asset - her basic competence and good raport with the public.
I hope he has a good sit down and a long think about what to do next and frames his next actions in a spirit of " whats best for the country" ( which could include heads rolling and so on) but that he does not act out of a desire for "revenge" Despite the aquittals has not come out of this well as by his own admission some of his actions are abhorrent. He can rehabilitate himself or he can take folk down inflames. His choice and I hope he picks the right one but I fear a vengeful man with no eye on the damage he will do
On Salmond - despite a "fishing expedition" that involved contacting over 400 women, and a degree of collusion between the parties doing the fishing, the accusations turned out to be falsehoods, some outright lies, some exaggeration and one illicit, consensual, sexual encounter. A jury, of mostly women, came to the conclusion that he was not guilty of any of them. You should also look at the timing of the accusations and that they were first reported to the SNP hierarchy and not the Police. Some of those involved within the SNP were doubling down yesterday, seeking to cast aspersions on the jury and the legal system because it didn't reach the conclusion they had so much desired.
On the SNP - the fact is that they have been in power for so long, and are likely to remain so, that folk with many other political agenda - and some with just a lust for power - see them as the only show in town. These folk aren't just "gradualists", for them independence is a distraction, an irrelevance. In fact, as they well know, independence would likely see the break up of the SNP as the glue of fighting for self-determination would no longer exist and they'd then lose the power they so desperately sought. There's a question asked of those SNP MPs sent to Westminster - are you there to settle up or to settle down?
The likely battle for Edinburgh Central between Joanna Cherry and Angus Robertson will be a key one to watch. Joanna has the fundies on board, Angus has the wokerati. If the latter wins then you can say goodbye to any chance of an independent Scotland for a lifetime.
If Salmonds next actions (and the forthcoming Holyrood Inquiry, and the investigation into Nicola Sturgeons role) result in a bit of a clearout in the SNP that might end up being the best thing.
No issue with that so long as his actions are in the best interests ( as he sees it of course) of the country not spite or vengeance. If this is dealt with well the damage could be minimal and the party and country could come out stronger. Deal with it badly and you end up like the labour party is now - more concerned with infighting and internal issues.
Maybe its part of maturing as a political party in power not a minority pressure group?
Critical times.
Edit - that post clears up a few things for me as well. Ta
If there are entryists who are just there for a sniff at power then they need to go. There is certainly one of them on Edinburgh council.
The likely battle for Edinburgh Central between Joanna Cherry and Angus Robertson will be a key one to watch. Joanna has the fundies on board, Angus has the wokerati. If the latter wins then you can say goodbye to any chance of an independent Scotland for a lifetime.
Colin, any chance of explaining this mate? I'm not really up on SNP in party politics, but keen that Indy doesn't suffer from stuff like this.
Ta.
Nobeerinthefridge
but keen that Indy doesn’t suffer from stuff like this.
See regarding indy, current events more important than this one will probably decide if there's any life left in indy tbh. If we come out of the current woes well, and i really really hope we do. I can't see indy surviving it, there will be a surge in pro british attitudes, imo.
Joanna Cherry is a bigot. There's plenty within the SNP who want rid of her, including many of the 'fundamentalists'.
This is a great example of why predicting the future is close to pointless.
A groper and a virus are quite likey to completely change the course of Scottish Independence.
Just to say - as an interested bystander (English living in England) it's fascinating reading your thoughts and views on such an important issue about which we hear nothing down here.
Thank you all for informing us
I'm not that informed on internal SNP stuff. Just my musings from the little I know
Restores my faith in humanity to see that politics everywhere is mainly about petty internal party turf wars and no one gives two hoots about the good of the people etc 😉
Looks like he is going to go full on for vengeance. That would be foolish in my view. He should wait for the review. Obviously if things were wrong then that needs to be addressed and maybe some heads should roll but to take the nuclear option will do untold damage.
In order to avoid said untold damage, several members of the SNP should be considering their positions and stepping down. In fact, if I was Nicola Sturgeon, I'd be making sure they did. The next inquiry will likely raise further question marks over the way the case was handled and it would be best that resignations were in beforehand rather than having to be dragged out as a consequence.
Seems fair enough. I do not know enough of the internal stuff really. Anything solid about misdeeds? I see hints from interested parties but nowt solid. I guess that will come out in time.
If people in the party were out to get Salmond why? One complainant passed over for being a candidate but if the conspiracy rather than cock up is true then whats the motivation? Thats whats got to me thru all this.
Why go after him after he resigned as first minister? ~Whats to be gained from it?
I am not saying yo are wrong but it all seems so weird to me.
Please let Fergus Ewing be part of the collateral damage from this!
Ummm. His own QC thinks he is a sex pest.. Doesn’t sound like it was a conspiracy that brought him down now does it?
His own QC thinks he is a sex pest.
His own QC was heard to say the words "sex pest" in a conversation about Alex Salmond, the allegations and the accusers. He was not heard to call Alex Salmond a sex pest. The QC is likely to be severely disciplined for using the names of two of the accusers in that same conservation.
Meanwhile, the accusers, in concert with Rape Crisis Scotland are doubling-down, with an open letter in The National. I reckon the Scottish legal profession are going to be kept very busy for a couple of years and Alex Salmond will end up a very wealthy man (OK, I know, he gave the last lot to charity).
One thing fairly impressive. Salmond clearly wants all the dirty washing out in the open / his vengeance ( delete according to political views). However he made one statement on the steps of the court which included ( to paraphrase) "now is not the time because of Corona. I'll shut up until the crisis is over" and so far he has.
Reading transcripts of the trial its clear that at best a lot of the evidence was very thin at worst much of it completely made up. Some of the witnesses should be facing trial for perjury the evidence was so obviously false.
The only problem for Salmond is his admissions of his own behaviour is the sort of thing that was barely acceptable in the 50s and certainly is not now. Not illegal just inappropriate.
Not illegal just inappropriate.
So if I can just lay my hands on someone and you think it's just "inappropriate"?
He is obviously a creepy, lecherous old man, who behaved in a way that he got away with for years, because of his position.
How would you feel if it was your wife, sister or daughter that he had a quick feel of?
I think he was lucky to get off with it.
Hope it ruins him in the end.
Point missed gobuchal. Its about boundarys and personal space not groping. Read the transcripts. Dont rely on the reports in the media.
Not a single credible allegation of anything lecherous. Not one.
Please - read the transcripts. I do not like Salmond and hope and believe this should be the end of him in scottish politics but having actually read the transcripts its clear what went on here and he is no sexual predator
Reading it from afar, I'm inclined to agree with TJ - the guys got no boundaries but, like the jury who heard the evidence, he didn't commit a crime.
His QC is an idiot though. People need to understand that you can't talk work on trains. I used to catch the Derby- London train for work, and the number of times I could overhear DWP managers who must have got on at Leeds discussing work and colleagues loudly used to make me cringe
read the transcripts its clear what went on here and he is no sexual predator
the guys got no boundaries but, like the jury who heard the evidence, he didn’t commit a crime.
He was not found guilty beyond all reasonable doubt. He also had a not proven.
If there was a deliberate conspiracy to destroy him, they wouldn't of chosen this route, unless they had a reason to think he would of been found guilty.
Maybe he isn't a "sexual predator" but definitely a lecherous and creepy bloke.
Hopefully his new fame will keep him away from situations where he is able to make women 'uncomfortable'
If you read the transcripts you will see a somewhat different picture to the one that appears in the media. So please read them.
gobuchl
If there was a deliberate conspiracy to destroy him, they wouldn’t of chosen this route, unless they had a reason to think he would of been found guilty.
You're assuming competence. Margaret Curran has apparently been besides the scenes in this, and has been gunning for Salmond for political reasons for many years. Competence is not a quality she is known for, personal and vindictive attacks, yes.
If you read the transcripts you will see a somewhat different picture to the one that appears in the media. So please read them.
I've looked for trial transcripts before and found that it's pretty rare for trial transcripts to be available, so I'm going to take a punt and say you haven't read transcripts of this trials and nobody else has been able to either. The best you'll find is the judges summing up IME.
I'd be delighted for you to prove me wrong with a linky to the transcripts for this trial.
Unofficial transcripts from a variety of sources. takes the usual pinch of salt of course.
If you read the transcripts you will see a somewhat different picture to the one that appears in the media.
After the trial, the man himself admitted that he had behaved "inappropriately".
Yep, it was established that he had a consensual sexual encounter with one of the [s] conspirators[/s] accusers while married. Of course, in some countries that's almost mandatory for a leading politician 😉
So apart from letting us know hes mad as hell with Sturgeon did we learn anything new?
does anyone think this will have much cut-through with voters?
IMO Salmonds "evidence" today has dug him a deeper hole
He said he wanted Sturgeon to intervene and that the complaints should have gone to mediation.
I am afraid he just does not get it at all. Mediation is totally inappropriate way to deal with allegations of this type and because Sturgeon wouldn't intervene on his behalf then he has gone guns blazing for her
In any decent workplace anyone behaving like him would have been sacked immediately. I would have been. Yes his behaviour was not criminal - its still reprehensible by his own admission.
No one comes out of this smelling of roses
As for the trial - the Crown office was damned either way. It was a weak case but if they had not prosecuted the cries of "cover up" would have been huge. Prosecute and he claims malicious prosecution
I am afraid he just does not get it at all. Mediation is totally inappropriate way to deal with allegations of this type...
It was a bit of a shocker when he came out with that.
he just sounds like a jilted lover seeking revenge, just a sad pathetic man
One thing I will say in his favour - he has not been shouting all over the media about this as he could have done
Were there people in the SNP delighted to see him fall? I would say yes. Was there a conspiracy to get him and was the new rules that allowed action to be taken at ex ministers aimed at him specifically? Paranoid nonsense
One thing I will say in his favour – he has not been shouting all over the media about this as he could have done
No, but the BBC have been absolutely priapic about it, no doubt fed by the Tory "PR" dept keen to keep their incompetence off the front pages. Salmond is unwittingly being played by Westminster and Unionists as it suits their agenda to seek division.
I disagree. Mediation was offered by AS when it became clear that the Scot Gov complaints process against him was unfair and unlawful and was doomed to fail. However the Scot Gov pressed on with the process eventually leading to the Judicial Review.
Despite being compelled twice by the Scottish Parliment to release the legal advice, that led to the Scot Gov losing the Judicial Review, this legal advice has never been made public.
Sadly no-one is going to come out of this well.
To those from other pars of the UK who aren't up to speed on this it is like David Cameron claiming that Boris Johnston and his close pals tried to discredit him and send him to jail. And when that failled and with-hold information to the committee and efffectively stop if from getting to the bottom of this whole sorry affair.
Next week Nichola Sturgeon has the chance to rebut thse allegations.
All this is taking place in a country with a long history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by fighting amongst ourselves.
All this is taking place in a country with a long history of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory by fighting amongst ourselves.
It’s like the political equivalent of the Dutch national football team.
Good job their majority is so large.
Unless I have misunderstood there are two places Salmond asked for mediation. firstly on the complaints of sexual assault / harassment which is clearly wrong ( IMO he wanted Sturgeon to sweep it all under the carpet as he does not accept he did anything wrong) and secondly instead of the judicial review / during that process which may have some validity
At the core of this tho is that he does not accept that unwanted sexual attention from a big powerful man is unacceptable and that his behavior is abhorrent. He clearly still does not accept he did anything wrong.
your behaviour can be wrong and merit disciplinary action even if it not criminal
As above if I had done what he did then I would have been rightly sacked
I always felt he was an absolutely horrible character, and today reinforced that. He's absolutely deluded and hell bent on vengeance regardless of the damage it'll cause and regardless of whether it's justified. It's borderline George Galloway stuff. His ego refuses to accept his fall from grace and he clearly expected preferential treatment
Again - to be fair there clearly was things done wrong by both the SNP and the Scottish government. That needs to be exposed. I would have far more sympathy for him tho if he had not merely said " I was acquitted" and accepted that his behaviour was wrong albeit not criminal
I was thinking more of the Covenanters at Bothwell Bridge
I've not read the thread but need to vent at the bias on R4's Today. Gunning for Sturgeon already.
What news/current affairs have less bias? Preferably radio/podcast, I like C4 news but don't want to have to watch telly.
I would have far more sympathy for him tho if he had not merely said ” I was acquitted” and accepted that his behaviour was wrong albeit not criminal
Choice of words likely carefully selected by his legal team. I think we should be clear about this “not criminal” stuff though - if that is true then he has a reasonable gripe that the crown pursued a prosecution. However if, it was true then his lawyers would have made a no case to answer submission before it got to the jury - I can’t recall if they did that (or even if it reportable if the did) but I seem to recall that the crown dropped a couple of charges after the evidence (the Advocat Depute will have assessed the evidence and said it doesn’t stack up) that suggests after all the evidence the crown still believed there was criminality if the jury accepted the crown evidence beyond reasonable doubt. Moreover, if the defence didn’t make a no case to answer submission then THEY also accepted that if the jury believed the evidence it was criminal. If they did make a submission then Lady Dorian must have decided that at its highest the crown case would be criminal.
We will never know what the jury’s thinking was, but they didn’t decide his actions were not criminal - they decided that the crown had failed to convince them beyond reasonable doubt that his actions were criminal. That’s a subtle but important distinction - the defence case wasn’t that most of these things didn’t happen, but rather that there was a degree of conspiracy to exaggerate them. Ordinarily juries will dismiss conspiracy theories like the rest of us - but there’s enough mess around the whole debacle to make you think - not that you believe the conspiracy but that bits of the basis for it might be true, and that should be enough to make a jury pause and acquit. It doesn’t mean they though he definitely did not break the law; it doesn’t mean they definitely thought the women were lying; just that there was a risk that they would be making a mistake to convict.
The media reporting / bias is appalling - BBC journalist called-out for blatant mistruths and has apologised on Twitter. Quite apparently an attempt by the Westminster apparatchik to undermine the SNP and influence the outcome of the Scottish Government elections. Obviously appeals to bowler-hatted, sash wearing yoons.
my view
the case against him was thin but the decision was made to prosecute ( independently from the SNP / scottish government) to avoid accusations of bias. If this had been joe bloggs from pilton it would not have been prosecuted
The prosecutors were damned if they did damned if they didn't. Prosecute and Salmond claims malicous prosecution, do not prosecute and face accusations of cover up