Why is the idea that the explanation may lie somewhere outside of the Official Line so unpalatable to you?
Because the official line coincides with the best available evidence and relies on logic and fact. So far all the other theories have presented zero evidence. (edit damn TJ said it beofre me)
RE the "missing steel" if you had bothered to read the evidence isntead of repeating your received wisdom found on ae911truth then you would know that the FEMA investigation collected tons of steel for examination, and conclusively proved that it was subjected to temps high enough to weaken it leading to the collapse.
Provide me with actual evidence that the towers collapsed purely as a result of the planes crashing into them (IE, something no-one has actually proven yet...).
What evidence would you accept?
I mean there is a nice paper from the University of Edinburgh (those well known US government stooges), written by an expert at the uni's BRE Centre for Fire Safety Engineering and published in Fire Safety Journal, which uses a finite element model to demonstrate how the fires alone could have caused the buildings to collapse:
[url= http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/1216 ]A.S., Usmani, Y. C. Chung, J. L. Torero (2003). "How did the WTC towers collapse: a new theory." (pdf) Fire Safety Journal, Volume 38, Issue 6.[/url]
But somehow I doubt that will help.
Expert materials and engineering analysis isn't enough. Fire crew testimony isn't enough. Independent eye witness accounts aren't enough. So what is?
What could we possibly offer that would convince you? Nothing.
Because your mind is "open". 🙄
Why is the idea that the explanation may lie somewhere outside of the Official Line so unpalatable to you?
Why is the idea that the official line is correct so unpalatable to you Elf? Issues with authority perhaps? 😉
Toys et al; I said Enough Already.
awww he's told you off now, better do what he says or you might get a smacked botty
There's nothing wrong with having an open mind and I don't believe Elf is being a nutter/troll for suggesting that there are alternative explanations in this case.
I feel a bit bad for starting this thread, given the ill-will that's starting to appear...
😳
Go on then elf.......
Provide me with actual evidence that the towers [s]collapsed purely as a result of the planes crashing into them[/s] [b]were blown up[/b] (IE, something no-one has actually proven yet...).
nah its just a desparate attmept to make me go away because I'm making life difficult for him.awww he's told you off now, better do what he says or you might get a smacked botty
Why is the idea that the explanation may lie somewhere outside of the Official Line so unpalatable to you?
Probably because the "Official Line" so to speak is usually the most logically self consistent. Everything else I've heard just seems like the paranoid delusions of an idiot.
For any of us to prove something, considering none of us (I'm speculating here a little..) know anything useful to this discussion about planes, buildings, explosives, demolition, shadow politics, terrorism, or have any first hand experience or knowledge about what happened and why, to you, who also does not know anything useful relating to this discussion about planes, buildings, explosives, demolition, shadow politics, terrorism, or have any first hand experience or knowledge about what happened and why, is futile and ultimately pointless. It's more likely that you will nihilate the argument before it gets anywhere, screaming "reality is subjective, facts are inscrutable, facts are inscrutable!!", then you to accept that some things are exactly what they seem to be.
People are wrong. Whilst it is kind of irritating, there is sometimes nothing you can do about it.
If we're getting serious, though, I do have a question:
Is there ANY way that the Diana thing could be a conspiracy?
My thoughts are that side-swiping a big car with a little car in a funny shaped tunnel without knowing whether or not the passengers are wearing seat belts is a bit too chaotic/idiotic (even for the royals) to have credence as a conspiracy...
dont feel bad camo 🙂 this always happens when elfin gets involved in a thread. did you study Modern history at University of Leeds?
Elfin, give it a rest.
You're talking about the biggest terrorist attack in history, an act which shocked the world but, more pertinently to the "theories" side of things, created one hell of a logistical headache. There's over a million tons of debris, dust, nasty chemicals (asbestos, concrete dust etc), bodies in one of the most densely packed cities on earth. Thousands of personnel from dozens of agencies sifting through it in first a rescue operation, then a clean up operation.
Initially, no-one had a clue how or why it happened, there were feelings of shock, anger, desperate personal tragedy and complete helplessness. There was no contingency plan for anything like this.
And you reckon every bit of wreckage should have been forensically analysed? Under the circumstances, I'd say they did bloody well with what they did manage to get. More than enough evidence to show that when you smash 200 tons of plane and fuel into a skyscraper at 400mph, it burns for a while then falls down...
dont feel bad camo this always happens when elfin gets involved in a thread. did you study Modern history at University of Leeds?
Why the question? I'm intrigued.
From Llanfihangel-Y-Creuddyn?
DONT QUESTION ME BOY! I ASK THE QUESTIONS HERE
From Llanfihangel-Y-Creuddyn?DONT QUESTION ME BOY! I ASK THE QUESTIONS HERE
There's every possibility that my cover may be blown here. 😯
But if faith in camo16 exists in the absence of proof, will I disappear if I say 'yes'?
Sherlock Consequence, eh?
** searches through collection of fake passports and decides to be Senõr Francisco de Rojas Zorrilla until the heat dies down **
awww he's told you off now, better do what he says or you might get a smacked botty
Oh look another incredibly insightful and intelligent response from Phil. Surprise surprise. Got a lolcat for us Phil? 🙄
What evidence would you accept?
Er, y'know, actual evidence, rather than theories? That kind of thing?
You know like in court;
[i]'Well we think this happened'[/i]
'Do you have any evidence that it happened?'
[i]'No, but we think it did'.[/i]
😕 See the problem here?
RE the "missing steel" if you had bothered to read the evidence isntead of repeating your received wisdom found on ae911truth then you would know that the FEMA investigation collected tons of steel for examination, and conclusively proved that it was subjected to temps high enough to weaken it leading to the collapse.
And if you din't have your knickers in such a twist, then you might also have noticed that of all the steel collected from the site, only 0.5% of it was ever tested for evidence that the steel had been compromised due to the fire. FEMA themselves stated that there was only ever 'limited metallurgical examination' of the material collected.
Nought point five percent.
That does not constitute proof at all, merely that of all the steel collected, only a tiny amount was tested.
By a US government agency.
And not by any other independent body.
All it does actually prove is that [i]parts[/i] of the building's steel structure collapsed as a result of fire. Not all of it.
And it doesn't actually prove that this heat damage was as a result of fire caused by jet fuel, either.
Yadda yadda yadda.
Elfin, give it a rest.
Why? Because I might happen to think differently to you?
Probably because the "Official Line" so to speak is usually the most logically self consistent. Everything else I've heard just seems like the paranoid delusions of an idiot.
See, there you go, attempting to denigrate anyone who might offer up an alternative explanation. Cos, like, that's grown up and mature...
The official Line is full of holes and woefully lacking in much actual 'proof'. Hence why it is routinely questioned by thousands of engineers, scientists, architects etc. Not 'unpatriotic unAmerican commie bastards', but ordinary americans seeking the truth about those terrible events. A truth it seems sadly they be forever denied.
A.S., Usmani, Y. C. Chung, J. L. Torero (2003). "How did the WTC towers collapse: a new [b]theory.[/b]"
Ahem.... 😉
this always happens when elfin gets involved in a thread
What, people get all twitchy and uncomfortable because their views and onions are challenged?
Diddums...
isn't it about time for the Edinburgh defence?
😆
mate, got a random building for us?
i dont pretend to be insightful or intelligent 
why, are you planning pre-loading it with explosives that won't detonate even when a 747 with a couple of full fuel tanks hits it?
please note - this building can only be blown up by god fearing white folks - anything else would be lies and government conspiracy
See, there you go, attempting to denigrate anyone who might offer up an alternative explanation. Cos, like, that's grown up and mature...
No it's not, you're pulling a straw man. I said all the alternate theories I have heard sound stupid. Not all the alternate theories that have existed, do exist, and will ever exist. Unless you'd like to suggest a theory that makes more sense then the current one, pointing out a few meaningless things that you claim disrepute something means nothing, unless you just want a non-theory, that everyone believes they fell down, but nobody cares why?
BTW, roughly I believe that about 200,000 tons of steel was collected. 0.5% of that is 1000. 1000 tons.
only a tiny amount was tested.
Besides, there's no such thing as truth, reality is a lie.
One of the more interesting conspiracy theories to me is the planet x one where basically governments are covering up the fact that a giant planet from the edge of our solarsystem is about to crash into the earth killing everyone.
[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nibiru_collision ]null
Er, y'know, actual evidence, rather than theories? That kind of thing?
WHAT "ACTUAL EVIDENCE"?
The "theories" are based on the best evidence that could be gathered.
They are "theories", and will remain so, because sadly Captain Invincible was unavailable to report back with an eyewitness account from inside the tower as it collapsed. And even if he did I doubt you'd believe it.
What made the towers fall down instead of up?
The official line is gravity, but that's just a "theory" 🙄
Let's try a slightly different angle:
Imagine you were an office worker in the towers before they collapsed and one day a mysterious bloke comes into your office with a massive Stihl Saw, cuts most of the way through the structural supports then leaves. Would you not maybe mention that to someone?
Imagine you worked for the demolition company that was asked to place demolition charges around an occupied skyscraper. In secret. Would you say nothing?
Imagine you worked building security at the towers. Would you not mention the several tons of explosives placed structurally around the central supports on several floors?
Imagine you are fire crew in the tower. Would you not radio back that you'd found a crap load of high explosive wrapped around the support pillars?
Imagine you were one of fire crew on the ground with first-hand expertise in tall building fires and structural collapse. You watch the towers fall and 300 of your mates get killed. Would you say nothing about the "controlled charges" and instead help cover it up by fabricating eyewitness reports of the building bulging prior to collapse?
not me BBSB 😉 i is too intelligent and insightful to do such a thing.
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xxx
I think 0.5% of the steel is quite a lot, (if that is true as most of what you have posted so far has proven to be bollocks) given that the towers had approx 200k metric tons of steel in them then they tested 1000 tons of steel, thats a shed load.
edit, damn been asleep , realman got there ages ago.
One of the more interesting conspiracy theories to me is the planet x one where basically governments are covering up the fact that a giant planet from the edge of our solarsystem is about to crash into the earth killing everyone.
Sounded interesting, gave up at this point though..
The idea was first put forward in 1995 by Nancy Lieder, founder of the website ZetaTalk. Lieder describes herself as a contactee with the ability to receive messages from extra-terrestrials from the Zeta Reticuli star system through an implant in her brain.
🙄
Sounded interesting, gave up at this point though..The idea was first put forward in 1995 by Nancy Lieder, founder of the website ZetaTalk. Lieder describes herself as a contactee with the ability to receive messages from extra-terrestrials from the Zeta Reticuli star system through an implant in her brain.
i got a bit further into than you then, i gave on it when the astronomers pointed out that you would be able to see it by now without using telescopes (if it was going to hit in 2012) and the only counter arguement that the theorists could make was that it was hiding behind the sun... 😀
Surely they could do better then that? Have they never heard of a stealth planet? Duh..
Ooh look, page 5!
"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State." -Josph Goebbels, Nazi propaganda minister
Thought this was a press release from the Chinese Government when I first read it.
I quite like the theory that putting pieces of tin foil up around the house improves wi-fi reception. Not sure if that is a conspiracy quite so much as a great practical joke that went viral.
However I do strongly believe that Elvis is still alive. I have no evidence, just faith.
Has nobody mentioned the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and its modern-day conspiracy theory counterpart, that 9/11 was a Jewish plot and no Jews went into work at the WTC on 9/11?
i was going to mention the jewish thing, initially about the whole 'the holocaust was made up by the jews' but then the subject turned to 9/11 and i figured i'd sit back and let people get in a tiz about it all.
everything i learnt about jews i learnt from southpark, even TJ would agree on how reliable the information is.
i was going to mention the jewish thing, initially about the whole 'the holocaust was made up by the jews' but then the subject turned to 9/11 and i figured i'd sit back and let people get in a tiz about it all.everything i learnt about jews i learnt from southpark, even TJ would agree on how reliable the information is.
Then you believe in Mr Hankey the Christmas Poo?
I want to believe!
I read an article a few years ago discussing what to do with the sites and artefacts of the nazi death camps. Some have been kept but of course are falling to pieces, and any restoration will play into the hands of the holocaust deniers and conspiracy theorists "that wall was clearly built in 1980 it's a zionist conspiracy to justify the state of Israel" etc.
Quite sad, what do you do with a warehouse full of human hair ? It is evidence on one level. Destroy it, and there is no evidence. Maintain it and be accused of faking the whole thing.
Suggestions on google when you type in Barack Obama is...
An alien
A cactus
The Antichrist
Your new bicycle
A Muslim
Irish
A clone
A terrorist
An Illuminati
A communist
A freemason
A homosexual
A homophobe
and so on, and so on..
sounds like the inspiration for camo16's new book realman!
sounds like the inspiration for camo16's new book realman!
Wha-ha-hat? I have to shoehorn in a misunderstood President, too?
he's not misunderstood he's a homosexual homophobe! google said so.
Phil - Family Guy is also a rich source of accurate information about our Jewish cousins.
he's not misunderstood he's a homosexual homophobe! google said so
Ah right. Got it. Let the shoehorning commence!
The new character, then, is an alien antichrist cactus with homosexual tendencies and an aptitude for homophobic epithets.
He's going to be quite a complex character, which means the book's going to work on many levels. Excellent.
** rubs hands together and s****s **
Which is ironic, as my jewish cousins are a good source of information about Family Guy.
Some have been kept but of course are falling to pieces, and any restoration will play into the hands of the holocaust deniers
Aren't they all maintained (and presumably must have undergone actual reconstruction at some point)?
Flight 93 was definitely brought down by the us government to avoid another strike - the story about the passengers taking over the flight was fabricated to give the country something to be proud of.
M6TTF - MemberFlight 93 was definitely brought down by the us government to avoid another strike - the story about the passengers taking over the flight was fabricated to give the country something to be proud of.
Source?
Me - it's my conspiracy theory
Fair enough. Honest. I like it.