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They’re ok if they don’t take the weird green sugar 😉
Oooooh yeah.. Smell the jingo on the breath of the frothing public.. Taste it in their sweaty outrage
rawr... inglun
Well on the poison, there was a report with a graphic to show how it's transported as two harmless sutances and then mixed to make the active poison as required. Now if a TV channel can provide that amount of information about a substance it isn't particularly secret or exclusive.
Chose from the 14 or more now being quoted for the dead - my comment was general not specific. I'm really not bothered when double agents get killed. I have a low regard for spies and even lower for double agents. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
So who is killing all these Russians? If it's Russians as Britain seems to assume then at least some of them are murderers guilty of killing their fellow spies and it really doen't much matter how. So my comparison with jihad John holds.
You don't "have to do" something. And if you do do something it should be after a suffient weight of evidence has be accumulated against someone shown to be acting under orders of the Russian state. Accusing Russia after a few minutes deliberation is naive. It might be Russia or it might equally be someone trying to stir up shit between the UK and Russia. Until that possibility is eliminated May should have a less conflictual approach. She making a fool of herself.
If you check out the Briexit thread you'll find a majority of STW contributors consider Boris a serial liar and manipulator and May an ineffectual hypocrit. The rest of the world it not blind to their lack of integrity, incompetance and inability to make sensible policy based on good judgement. Laughing stock.
Considering a lot of Russians have been killed in the past few years without any coverage or investigation, it is a bit suspicious that the PM Is going all out on this occasion.
I have no doubt that EU members will give their support to the UK.
Putin doesn't just view the killing of Russians as acceptable, don't forget the poor souls on flight MH17 that were killed just for being on a passenger jet. With nerve agents being used in a city full off civilians then something should be done.
Well on the poison, there was a report with a graphic to show how it’s transported as two harmless sutances and then mixed to make the active poison as required. Now if a TV channel can provide that amount of information about a substance it isn’t particularly secret or exclusive.
Perhaps that’s the unsecret bit? I could probably have explained that many years ago when I was a Chemistry undergrad. I’d imagine the fingerprinting lies in trace elements.
suffient weight of evidence has be accumulated against someone shown to be acting under orders of the Russian state.
You are never going to get to legal “proof” in international affairs. They’ll just deny it, and I can’t see Vlad turning up at the Old Bailey. Nobody is being locked up here, we’re just sending some diplomats/spies back to the motherland. Perhaps the lack of absolute proof, only strong suspicion, is the reason the Govt aren’t seizing assets etc?
Putin doesn’t just view the killing of Russians as acceptable, don’t forget the poor souls on flight MH17 that were killed just for being on a passenger jet. With nerve agents being used in a city full off civilians then something should be done.
TBH I saw that one (MH17) as a cock-up at the tactical level rather than a deliberate act at the time. Case of mistaken identity I thought, it was hard to see what it gained Russia.
From the country that's made 26 James Bond films the lack of imagination when it comes to plausible ways in which this substance might get into the hands of someone not acting for the Russian state surprises me, and that assuming Russia is the only state to have ever made the stuff and that it can be finger printed. If 14 Russians have been killed that's a possible source. Maybe the Russians didn't kil them and Russian spies are being target by some other organisation for some reason. Fact is very often stranger than fiction - dig out your cold-war spy novels for inspiration!
But seriously,, pointing fingers prematurely is stupid and dangerous.
Surely this nerve agent cant "only" be created in Russia, have i missed something? If another state got their hands on the exact agent back in the 70's, UK/US/another country to say perhaps work on a counter measure for it or understand it. Wouldn't they have an identical match of what Russia had therefore a matching chemical fingerprint.
Cant even believe I'm typing this conspiracy related nonsense, sure this was on Strike Back
in which this substance might get into the hands of someone not acting for the Russian state
They really ought to have noticed if some has gone missing!
We do have countermeasures for nerve agent, it’s Just that you need to be expecting to be attacked with it!
And it's out of chrachter. When Britian wants shot of someone they commit suicide (Kelly) and when Russia wants shot of someone they usually commit suicide too. A radioactive isotope is one thing (if it really was Russia) but a nerve agent raises the stakes in that it breaks international laws. If you were Vlad would you do that? When it's so easy to kill people in so many other ways.
Do you think Russia would admit it if it had lost some of this substance?
The antidote is only effective if administered in less than 4 minutes according to local news.
Its a Brexitfail distraction, no more, no less.
Good to see France coming into line after their initial misstep.
That's the bit that i can't get my head round completely. Why use something that is so obviously traceable (if indeed it is, I don't believe no-one else can make it, but i do suspect there will be a fingerprint that can pretty well confirm source) unless it is a deliberate threat to show what could be done if they wanted.
But we kind of knew that anyway.
I'm generally of the 'looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is a duck' viewpoint but at the same time, we do seem to be in almost indecent haste to act when there does seem to be a proper protocol that we aren't following.
-> IF <- I was a conspiracy theorist, for example, why are we still 'in the process' of sending a sample to the Chemical Weapons Inspectorate so they can analyse it, we've had it for a week now and it's only Novichok on our say so. I mean, could the delay be that it isn't? or that we know we made it and it doesn't match the fingerprint? or that we're frantically searching the cupboards of Porton Down / our allies equivalents to find a sample of it....... you could have a field day if you wanted. And while Putin does seem to be sarcastically trolling us, clearly he knows if they did it but also he would know if they didn't.
Well on the poison, there was a report with a graphic to show how it’s transported as two harmless sutances and then mixed to make the active poison as required. Now if a TV channel can provide that amount of information about a substance it isn’t particularly secret or exclusive.
Thanks that really is a lot of detailed information- I now have all the information I need to make my own nerve agent and bump off anyone who's flounced from the forum in a huff about fonts. Splitters. I'll check in the cupboard and see if I've got two 'harmless substances' I can mix.
Salt - ah no thats bad for you
err
Sugar. God no, thats the new salt.
Marmite - could go either way really.
This might be harder than I thought.
How about Piccalilli and tinned Mackerel?
Now I know why they cordoned off Sainsburys
A radioactive isotope is one thing (if it really was Russia) but a nerve agent raises the stakes in that it breaks international laws. If you were Vlad would you do that? When it’s so easy to kill people in so many other ways.
Bumping people off in other countries breaks international law outside of the law of armed conflict, however you do it. That’s why the PM’s words were carefully chosen the other day. Why indeed kill people in ways with the state’s fingerprints all over them? Why not fake a mugging gone wrong, car accident etc? Unless you’re an ageing autocrat in charge of a kleptocracy, trying to send a message to enemies foreign and domestic? Bit more plausible than Bond villains in hollowed out volcanoes, no?
Link, quote or source, Mefty? Not being difficult I'd just like to know what the official line is having chuckled my way through the radio reports.
why are we still ‘in the process’ of sending a sample to the Chemical Weapons Inspectorate so they can analyse it
I think that's down to the OPCW, they are literally coming over to analyse it themselves and I've read are notoriously slow and bureaucratic.
Its just odd, what gives a countries leader more support by the public than a conflict with another country and who needs that support right now regarding internal issues.
Its just odd, what gives a countries leader more support by the public than a conflict with another country and who needs that support right now regarding internal issues.
Are you talking about May or Putin?
@airtragic - I was referring to May but Putin also has an election on Sunday. Heard he bumps off his opponents though so I doubt he's worried.
the Élysée
It's ok the government are using it as an excuse to chuck £40m at a new chemical weapons lab, which sounds like the kind of escalation we don't want to be involved in! (Im sure they didn't have to announce that, maybe they thought it'd reassure the public?)
Putin's been smart on this one.
Impossible to link it directly back to Russia, especially as we seem to have no idea who, how,where got it here/did the poisoning.
All that kind of evidence will be required to get multilateral response we need.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">(Particularly humbling for May & Johnson who have spent last 2 years taking the piss out of the EU)</span>
Portion Down doesn’t have an offensive role, we don’t “do” chemical, biological or radiological. £40m is peanuts, I’d imagine that’s a scheduled refit that someone has decided to announce given events this week.
Well im sure that officially we dont do those kind of weapons, but as its all top secret stuff, who knows?
yeah Im sure that normally they dont just announce this stuff, im just not sure itll be that reassuring as Russia will happily imterpret it as an investment in chemical weapons
"but i do suspect there will be a fingerprint that can pretty well confirm source"
I cant see that the chemicals themselves could be 'fingerprinted' back to the source
It would have be done tracing the assasins/ people who brought the chemicals into the country.
I have no idea how you make novichok, but i understand it can be made using industrial chemicals that might already be available widely
Well im sure that officially we dont do those kind of weapons, but as its all top secret stuff, who knows?
Portion hold research stocks. If [tinfoil hat on] that’s just a front, nobody I’ve ever met in the military is trained to handle them or use them, we don’t have a delivery mechanism, how do we transport and store them. Imagine we were trying to hide our nuclear capabilities, not terribly credible. Occam’s razor suggests that actually Porton is....a research establishment.
as its all top secret stuff, who knows?
JHJ knows, but just can't tell us. Y'know....sources....*taps nose*
A nation of idiots, that's us. The attack was done in a way that deliberately makes it clear that the UK isn't a safe place as regards avoiding Russian "power"… and yet many of us still run around on the internet looking for ways to blame ourselves. A nation of idiots.
A nation of idiots.
A nation of idiots just queuing up to excitedly believe exactly what we are being asked to believe.
JINGO
Putin and May were cackling when they planned this nonsense over a hearty lobster dinner
That’s the bit that i can’t get my head round completely. Why use something that is so obviously traceable (if indeed it is, I don’t believe no-one else can make it, but i do suspect there will be a fingerprint that can pretty well confirm source) unless it is a deliberate threat to show what could be done if they wanted.
We have gifted Putin the opportunity to act the strongman in the run-up to his election this weekend. Anyone would think that being caught brazenly offing a bunch of 'traitors', followed up by facing down some enfeebled European nation with threats is precisely what he wants right now.
We have gifted Putin the opportunity to act the strongman in the run-up to his election this weekend.
He had already won the election about 2 days after becoming president
As Cold War 1.0 ended, it became apparent that a country that had been worrying us so much was hollow inside. Russia should be taken seriously, but in the end it is a minor economic power. It has allowed its insecurities to lead it into behaviour that can hurt its adversaries, but in the end will prevent it from addressing the aspirations of the Russian people.
https://www.newstatesman.com/2018/03/putin-s-new-cold-war
I don't even think debating over whether Russia did it or not is real issue, my view is the Russians did it and used the substance in the full knowledge it could likely be traced back but also in full knowledge they could just deny it anyway and no one could really do anything as providing absolute proof would be impossible.
It's the same with Ukraine/Crimea, some people argue Putin totally played the West and out-maneuvered them but it basically came down to the West not wanting to start a war over it, as they won't with this nerve agent attack either. Russia doesn't have much left to fear from sanctions so Putin knows he can act with impunity - you don't need to be especially clever given that mandate.
And any time the West reacts it just feeds back into Putin's narrative back home that poor innocent Russia is being bullied and threatened by the West and needs him with absolute power to stand up to them.
Ultimately we're headed back to a 1980's cold war scenario if things don't change (i.e. Putin gives up his current crusade), what we're seeing now is just the beginning of that process.
He had already won the election about 2 days after becoming president
True, but he's still going out campaigning as if it were actually a genuine election. And if there is any moment to deploy the Mother Russia Strongman routine he loves so much, it's now.
Good post Kelvin.
edit: and fuzzywuzzy
If it does indeed turn out to be Novichok then there are only two real scenarios -
- Its a russian state sponsored kill and middle finger to the rest of the world, they want other agents to know they can be got to wherever they are and that they dont give a crap about the intervention from other governements, that or its just an act of 'strength' from Putin.
- Its bullcrap, it wasnt the Russians state but a rogue party / annexed area / other government outside of Russia intent on causing trouble.
However, Corbyn is behaving more like the adult in the room here, without verifiable proof its mental to take action - nobody imprisons a person for murder before a trial and 'proof'.
Not sure where I stand, if we are to believe news Putin is a crook, his associates are crooks, Russia are rolling back to older more nationalist times and are acting to mess with other countries as much as possible via non typical means - hacking etc and now supposedly this - it does fit the narrative.
I will personally not believe anything until its verified though, anyone remember those weapons of mass destruction.....
Good read mefty
I don't think kelvin's post is a good post.
I don't think I'm an idiot.
We see time after time that the story the public gets fed is often not really very illuminating. The home office decide what they would prefer us to believe about sensitive events, and then years later we sometimes come to understand something approaching the truth of the matter.
So why would anyone accept the story on face value?
Surely the shrewd approach is to instantly dismiss the official version as a starting point?
I think crankrider's post is a much better post than kelvin's
I cant see that the chemicals themselves could be ‘fingerprinted’ back to the source
I agree. I have no idea of the chemical formula of the compound, but it’s likely to at the most only contain CHNOSP, which makes pinning the source of it very difficult even with isotopic techniques. Usually you’d need traces of REEs and Sr etc to really pick geological sources, and even then that would only tell you the source of the precursors, which might bear no relation to the place it was synthesised.
That’s the bit that i can’t get my head round completely. Why use something that is so obviously traceable
1. It sends out a message that they can do what the hell they like, both to us, and more importantly to the people who's loyalty to el presidente might be wavering
2. He's got an election coming up so has engineered a conflict with the west (but not TOO big a conflict) to fuel paranoia at home and feed the narrative that a strong man is needed to stand up to the west i.e.: him
Its got Putins fingerprints all over it because thats exactly the way he wanted it. You're not telling me that there are less dodgy ways to kill someone that wouldn't cause so much fuss? This just suited his ends perfectly
I wish he'd just come out and get himself a nice boyfriend. The word would be a lot safer place if he wasn't dealing with his reppressed homosexuality
Surely the shrewd approach is to instantly dismiss the official version as a starting point?
Do you mean the official version coming out the UK, or Russia?
Believe what you want. Some made up false flag shit propagated on the internet… our own non-existent weapons… whatever. Wave your hands in the air with some "whatabout Blair" irrelevance. What do our security services have to gain if this is all some elaborate conspiracy theory, rather than than a show of Russian power? Why finger the Russians?
well it does distract from the absolute shitshow that the government is making of brexit, record number of deaths in the NHS, first rise in infant mortality in over a decade.
On balance i still reckon it was that putin git
Not aimed at you personally yunki, just the article makes me laugh!
You’re right that more tends to come out in the wash, but I can’t think of an example where it transpired that the heads of Govt arranged it all over dinner!