Forum menu
Ahh.. makes more sense.
Chap must have spent his life looking over his shoulder.
If he really thought the Russian authorities would come after him, I expect he would have hidden himself a bit better. I used to work at the same place as Vladimir Rezun (aka Victor Suvurov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Suvorov ) another Russian spy who whilst he used a different name, lectured on Soviet Military Studies and would happily sign copies of his books for you so it was obvious who he really was. He never went back to Russia for fear of arrest, but wasn't in deep hiding in the UK.
It wouldn't surprise me if Sergei Skripal had lots of enemies in Russian organised crime as well as various intelligence agencies, could well have been one of them who went after him, not neccesarily the Russian authoritues....
Authorities have confirmed that a nerve agent was used, and a bobby is also seriously ill in hospital. Pretty much confirms Russian state sponsored involvement.
The fallout from this is going to be significant.
I can’t imagine Putin’s shaking in his boots, given the prospect of a stern look from Theresa, which is about all we’ve got left now.
The fallout from this is going to be significant.
I doubt it.
There are dozens of retired ex-soviet spies living quite happily around the world. The difference with those living happily ever after and those who're allegedly being targeted is they're not retired. They're still active in one way or another in either state or private intelligence.
I doubt it.
Well, this is the first confirmed hostile use of chemical weapons on UK soil in history. I know our extra-judiciary killings record isn’t great, but I still think this will be significant.
Well, this is the first confirmed hostile use of chemical weapons on UK soil in history.
A slight stretch, or am I just being pedantic. Even just among former Russian spies deaths in the UK ( a bit of a niche), there's a diverse range of poisons; ricin, polonium (poisons being synonymous with weaponized chemicals). Even the term "nerve agent" covers everything from VX (which was originally developed and sold by ICI as an insecticide), to any organophosphate used as an insecticide (a common method of suicide for the rural poor in 3rd world countries).
"The first use of chemical weapons" conjures up images of shells of Sarin falling on rural England.
there'll be a fair bit of heavy posturing to be done if the copper doesn't recover
Will this be number 15 added to the other 14 cases dropped by the police for lack of evidence? Or political pressure?
Will we ever hear more about it, or will it be lost in the press amongst other news having had political pressure weighed on them??
It could be used as an excuse to call a halt on the amount of dubious Russian cash floating around the city of London.....nah, on second thoughts that’s never going to happen
Initial reports put the blame on Fentanyl.
That poor dog gets blamed for everything......
dubious Russian cash floating around the city of London…..nah, on second thoughts that’s never going to happen
pretty soon it may be the only cash floating about the city of London [/xit]
Will England still go to World Cup?
Cant imagine that getting a policeman involved was part of the plan, that is either incompetence or the perps don’t care and are sending a message. Mossad are old hands at that.
I hope putin is prepared for an extra stern bumbling telling off from BoJo
Using Polonium last time sent an obvious message.
The trail it left was indisputably linked to Russia & the assassin was decorated by Putin for services to mother Russia.
I can't see anyone daring to go ahead with this without Putins consent either.
UK even less able to retaliate now, Johnson was roundly ignored when asking EU for sanctions last time, his standings not improved
, you can see why Putin was so pleased with Brexit & his TV channel so keen to push it at the time
There is the possibility that the UK's weakened international standing is the reason why the Russians thought it would be ok to go ahead with an attack that put at risk the lives of people other than their intended target
Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland have all announced they're not sending teams to the World Cup in Russia.
😀
Polonium isn't a wmd, VX gas is. Polonium is not designed from the outset to kill as many people as possible, in a nasty way. So if VX was used by Russia this would be a massive escalation and a message that they can do want they want in our country. Ricin doesn't even compare to this stuff.
Had Russia simply wanted to off him, this would have been done old school with a couple of bullets to the chest.
Using Polonium last time sent an obvious message.
I thought that was uncertain whether the Russians knew it could be detected or not. So it may have been intended as a deniable operation with no clear evidence.
Polonium isn’t a wmd, VX gas is. Polonium is not designed from the outset to kill as many people as possible, in a nasty way. So if VX was used by Russia this would be a massive escalation and a message that they can do want they want in our country. Ricin doesn’t even compare to this stuff.
Had Russia simply wanted to off him, this would have been done old school with a couple of bullets to the chest.
No, V series nerve agents were designed as an insecticide, ICI even sold it commercially before they realised it was quite so toxic. Portan down bought it off them for testing. Its up there with Viagra for unintended uses.
Amiton was the only chemical that was ever marketed as a pesticide. The rest were initially discovered during commercial pesticide development and then further developed for the sole purpose of killing a **** tonne of people. Where as Polonium has plenty of legitimate uses, and its lethality is hardly comparable.
There is a big difference between initial discovery and designed for. VX is and has been designed specifically for killing, that is it. It was too toxic to ever be developed as a pesticide. It was one of several toxic chemicals that was selected to be developed as chemical weapon at Porton Down.
Basicall, VX got as far as "oooh this chemical looks interesting" when it came to pesticide design, it was certainly never properly develop ed into one.
I thought that was uncertain whether the Russians knew it could be detected or not. So it may have been intended as a deniable operation with no clear evidence.
Theres no way you could produce polonium & not know that you can track it
While its possible the assassins didnt know this, theres no doubt those who supplied & OKd it would
Anyone whos worked with radioisotopes, will tell you that the paranoia you have using them means you swab & count everything!
Remember folk, we turned Iraq into a smoking hole in the desert for less than this. They weren't even caught with WMD, nevermind the fact that they never had the brass balls to use nerve agents on our population
Anyone whos worked with radioisotopes, will tell you that the paranoia you have using them means you swab & count everything!
Whilst this is true to some extent, you'd need to know to look for an alpha emitter in order to find it. IIRC it was only by sheer chance after a conversation between someone on Litvinenko's medical team and an unrelated colleague that suspicions of radiation poisoning were considered. Po is a pretty creative way of offing someone, so hardly likely to show up in standard diagnostic tests even when poisoning is suspected
Remember folk, we turned Iraq into a smoking hole in the desert for less than this. They weren’t even caught with WMD, nevermind the fact that they never had the brass balls to use nerve agents on our population
It was actually mostly the US that did that, and Iraq is/was a fair bit different militarily/world standing-wise than Russia. There's pretty much nothing the UK can do that has any meaning past a bit of political bluster. Even if the EU were on-board there's already plenty of sanctions in place with Russia, a few more isn't going to hurt Putin's popularity/grip on power
I disagree, we could retaliate by going after Snowdon and bombing more Russian PMCs in Syria. Also, based on todays news a 10er says this was Novichok agent.
Allowing it to slide gives Putin carte blanche to engage in unconventional postmodern warfare and terrorism in the UK.
This seems very similar to the assassination of the North Korean man in KL last year, using a spray of nerve agent.
It'll be interesting to see if the CCTV shows some contact with anyone who subsequently flew out of Southampton airport two hours later.
One a different note, last summer I spent a happy half-hour exactly there, on the footpath outside Sainsbury's in Salisbury, watching water voles swimming around in the Avon.
Po is a pretty creative way of offing someone, so hardly likely to show up in standard diagnostic tests even when poisoning is suspected
They Wouldve expected litvinenko to be given a thorough autopsy & half life of 140 days
Lucky break to have diagnosed b4 death but ru not naive enough to think we'd never figure it out & the trail easy enough.
One a different note, last summer I spent a happy half-hour exactly there, on the footpath outside Sainsbury’s in Salisbury, watching water voles swimming around in the Avon.
Voles = Vx moles parachuted in from Moscow.
foreign affairs select committee chair Tom Tugendha, not being subtle
President Putin, if it is indeed he who ordered it, is trying to make sure that those who betray him know that there is a cost to betrayal.
All ageing dictators have a problem which is that as they age, people begin to think about the future. Young men with ambitions and dreams start to wonder whether they could take his place ... and so this is one way possibly of stating very clearly that disloyalty however historic will be punished and will be punished very obviously. It wasn’t just Colonel Skripal that was [attempted to be] murdered it looks likely that his wife was murdered a year or so ago, his son was also murdered in 2017 and now his daughter too.
They Wouldve expected litvinenko to be given a thorough autopsy & half life of 140 days
Yup, but if they weren’t looking for a major alpha emitter, they’d be unlikely to find it, dead or not. All standard tox tests would return a negative, and even if they went for metal poisoning I very much doubt any lab would routinely have Po in its standards mix for ICP.
Gov have tests for dirty bombs & that this was poisoning was widely known
Would they have tested for radioactive materials in such a case? I would have thought so
FWIW I know of & have used several scintilation counters within 10 minute walk of litvinenkos hospital bed
The Journal coverage of this whole story has been excellent
Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland have all announced they’re not sending teams to the World Cup in Russia.
In addition, England have announce that they will only stay for the first round and then come home.
sorry but that's far too Detectorists for me not to laugh
grave
zombies?!?!?
torygraph coverage bit more sensational....
FWIW I know of & have used several scintilation counters within 10 minute walk of litvinenkos hospital bed
From Wikipedia: "Alpha particles are a hugely ionizing form of particle radiation. When they result from radioactive alpha decay they have low penetration depth. In this case they can be absorbed by a few centimeters of air, or by the skin." It's not like they gave him a Po210 bath.
Remember folk, we turned Iraq into a smoking hole in the desert for less than this. They weren’t even caught with WMD, nevermind the fact that they never had the brass balls to use nerve agents on our population
Iraq was about lovely lovely oil, nothing to do with weapons.
Iraq was about lovely lovely oil, nothing to do with weapons
Hang on - I thought it was about human rights abuses and moral rectitude
It's a popular theme the thing about Iraq being about oil, but in reality (used to work for a global oil industry analysis and tracking system) the % of US oil imports from Iraq were miniscule back then (I think less than 5%) and dropped after the wars, have crept up a bit in last year or two but still tiny. There was no oil export frenzy in iraq after the wars. The persian gulf doesn't account for nearly as much of their oil imports as folk think, if they were going to invade anywhere for oil it'd be Canada or South America
@kimbers: I don’t doubt there are scint counters near hospitals, I assume they’d be used for swipe testing of areas where radiation therapy is used or prepared, and also in research areas.
However, Litvinenko wasn’t diagnosed until after a few weeks as a last resort they sent samples to Aldermaston for gamma testing. This of course came back (nearly) negative too, and it was only a chance conversion that suggested Po, which was then tested for and confirmed. All in here: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33678717
It’s a popular theme the thing about Iraq being about oil, but in reality (used to work for a global oil industry analysis and tracking system) the % of US oil imports from Iraq were miniscule back then (I think less than 5%) and dropped after the wars, have crept up a bit in last year or two but still tiny
I thought the (conspiracy? - if you like) theory was that it happened in order to open up a state monopoly to allow in US extraction companies - regardless of the oil's final destination ?
You only need picomoles
