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Good to see BloHard upto his own lying tricks again this morning, bemoaning Russia for spouting lies and deceit..
Well.. as they say, takes one to know one eh BloHard.
@slackalice I had another look at the site. The language it uses to describe Amnesty International is really similar to the way the Russian government talks about Amnesty International. I'm a general sceptic about governments, but AI is one of the few organisations I'm truly proud to have worked for.
Putins ex intelligence bikebuoy, of course he can lie and act.
Yep the Tories have taken millions from russian oligarchs, Putin's finance minister paying for his definitely not a honeytrap wife to play doubles with Cameron & Johnson (160k) https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/putin-crony-banker-lubov-chernukhin-gifts-tories-161-000-gx6gbh2n8
dinner with defence sec williamson (30k) Ruth Davidson (20k)
But yes Corbyn has a Commie hat & Juncker wrote a letter
Meanwhile
If we were coordinated and did a simultaneous grab of assets, all the major European cities slap a travel ban (so Putin and his cronies had nowhere to spend time and had to stay in Russia) and we (europe) withhold gas payments for a few months, they will all start turning on each other
Do we feel that Dumbojo has overstepped the mark with his hitler comparisons?
I feel we should have 100% proof before we start pissing off the most dangerous man on the planet.
they will all start turning on each other
Cunning. Imagine that. A strategy that causes people to all start turning on each other.
24000 fans have applied for ticket to go to Russie, they must be crazy .
Even the players must be scared about it.
Even Guy Verhofstadt has slammed Juncker.....
So, it seems the science wasn't categorical after all...
As others have said, doing nothing is not an option...that kind of non response leads to the UK becoming a killing ground for Russian intelligence services who feel they can operate here with no repercussions...is that what we want!?...ditto the fact they're prepared to use extreme chemicals that are a threat to UK citizens...doing nothing effectively endangers UK citizens going forward.
As has also been said, despite its size Russia is economically a crack pot state still...hitting them by cutting off intel and economic measures are about the only things that will work...Putin will never admit it of course but the UK is far better geared towards an economic standoff than Russia...not pleasant for either country but I refer to my first point...doing nothing gives the green light to Russia to operate assassinations in this country with impunity...and given the reckless use of chemical weapons this time it can't go unpunished.
Russia and its recent actions are far more of a threat than Iraq (and it's non existent chemical weapons) ever were...in the morning I'll post the outline of a conversation I had with a senior British army officer about international threats and top of the list was Russia...he knew it, his colleagues knew it...but politicians didn't want to know and the media and public had no appetite with the current Gulf crisis and the Cold War seemingly old news...he was right about everything so far, the intelligence has been there for years but the political will has been missing.
But but but... Boris Johnson said he'd been personally assured by the head of Porton Down that they had proof it was Russian poison. He wasn't LYING was he? Shurely not!!
The comments from Porton just reflect what zokes was saying at the time, they can prove it’s Agent X but it’s nigh-on impossible to prove it came from Russia. That analysis comes from other sources, looks pretty likely to be Russia even with just the open source stuff.
Yup. Trouble is he lied about it as claiming scientific proof from our “world leading” lab has more credence than saying he’s relying on the people who brought you the 45 minute dossier. The cretin is a career liar: it’s worth taking anything he says with a huge pinch of salt.
Johnson bullshitting is hardly news, hes made a career out of it,
Craig Murray was absolutely right in his analysis, at the moment there is abolutely no evidence to link it to Russia
Even though its fairly obvious that it was Putin's play
Of course Russia will jump on the Porton Down statement, when your foreign secretary caught out fibbing on the international stage, its ann opportunity for Russia to obfusciate ever more
Of course Russia will jump on the Porton Down statement, when your foreign secretary caught out fibbing on the international stage, its an opportunity for Russia to obfusciate ever more
And this is the point. Even if it was Russia, we now have zero credibility with anyone at all (not that Bozo had a whole lot to start with).
Quite. Which was why I went to so much trouble to labour the point at the time.
24000 fans have applied for ticket to go to Russie, they must be crazy .
Even the players must be scared about it.
No way I would go as a fan.. if I was a player I'd be more worried about them contaminating food/drink with banned substances.. Putin would love it for our whole team to fail tests..
Craig Murray was absolutely right in his analysis, at the moment there is abolutely no evidence to link it to Russia
There is shit loads of evidence but its balance of probabilities rather than proof. The reality is we know russia bumps of agents here and we now it was them , we now they did it without "proof " so they could deny it and use it to sow further discord. To discuss it further is just paying into their hands and exactly what they want to happen.
Granted Boris has not helped any with his BS but that is nothing new.
There is shit loads of evidence but its balance of probabilities rather than proof.
There is a reason why British criminal courts require a higher burden of proof than that. I accept that it’s not always easy to obtain proof to that level, but there’s a reason for that too.
Regardless, two weeks and about 140 explelled diplomats later, are Russia any less likely to do it again?
Am I likely to do this debate again ?
there is no proof but lets see what you do with the balance of probabilities 😉
Slightly?
I think if you wanted to be generous to BoJo, you could say that his muddled mode of speech caused confusion. Looking at the transcript, you could interpret it as the scientist told him it was definitely Novichok. Definitely not a straightforward “caught deliberately and knowingly lying” scenario.
This suggests there may be a link between Cambridge Analytica and Skripal
there is no proof but lets see what you do with the balance of probabilities
Well, that's just your invention, as we have no objective evidence of anything at all. PD refute BoJo's clear claim about a Russian origin, other "evidence" of an intel nature may exist but for us on the outside it is just speculation.
PD refute BoJo’s clear claim about a Russian origin, other “evidence” of an intel nature may exist but for us on the outside it is just speculation.
Well, I believe it’s only known to have been made in Russia/Soviet Union, plus their previous, plus timing. All circumstantial but lots of it!
That's the Foreign Office now been found deleting Tweets about the source too. Give the Tory press and BBC another few hours and we'll find it was all in our collective imaginations.
Am I likely to do this debate again ?
Did it get you anywhere last time?
As it seems we can’t trust the govt on the scientific evidence (which I’d been at pains to highlight all along), why are you so sure we can trust them on the evidence allegedly provided by the intelligence agencies?
Again, if it was them, 140 expelled diplomats later and aside from the amusement that the kiwis can’t find anyone to expel, has the world gained anything?
Missed this at the time… getting more relevant by the day…
https://www.byline.com/column/67/article/2090
the lass has probably told the police it was a joint suicide pact with her old man and there is now a lot of egg on our collective faces ! 😉
Interesting watching Johnson on the news today trying to excuse talking bollox by saying 'but that's what they told me'. He clearly doesn't understand the nature of leadership. He's now on twitter trying to defend himself by claiming Jeremy Corbyn is siding with the Russians.
It would appear those who compared this to the Iraq dodgy dossier and roundly dismissed as lunatic conspiracists were bang on the money.
It would appear those who compared this to the Iraq dodgy dossier and roundly dismissed as lunatic conspiracists were bang on the money.
I reckon the odds are still on it being Russia. Unfortunately though Boris being an attention seeking liar has provided ample ammunition for Russia.
I guess there is an outside chance thats what he is told but my money would be on him lying given his long track record of doing so.
Again, if it was them, 140 expelled diplomats later and aside from the amusement that the kiwis can’t find anyone to expel, has the world gained anything?
So if it is them. What do you expect the government to do? Nothing? Launch a Trident?
I would be pretty sure it was Russia - either rogue agents or state sponsored but as yet we dont have a shred of evidence even circumstantial evidence of any russian involvement.
all novichock actually means is "new substance" anyway
we dont have a shred of evidence even circumstantial evidence of any russian involvement.
All you have proved is that the russians are not shit at being spies. Of course they kill someone in a way that cannot be proved but we all know - sends out a signal but means they can do the public charade and then try to sow discord in the west as no one can prove it was them - though we al know it was. Its a very effective strategy to use against us.
The lack of unity both within the UK and the West is exactly what they want. Its hard to see how we beat them but we cannot just do nothing either. Putin seems determined to have another cold war and our resolve must be a strong as last time - though I do not welcome this I see few options.
Russia loses vote at the OPCW for joint UK-Russia investigation into <span class="hash">#</span><span class="link-complex-target">Salisbury</span> attack by 32 to 6
Fortunately though Boris being an attention seeking liar has provided ample ammunition for Russia.
FIFY.
He's more than a buffoon that bloke.
We should start calling for his sacking.
Corbyn is in the privy council wouldn't he have seen all the evidence/ intelligence?
Corbyn's call for caution and to check evidence/ do everything by the book etc was common sense and exactly what you want from a opposition leader. Its not a ****ing game!
Boris is a liability. But if he were to be sacked now it would be too much of a PR win for Russia. Unless they sack him for something else- has he mde any other gaffs?
Boris always makes Gafs but due to BRexit he is unsackable unless he does something that mean even they abandon him
This becomes more pertinent by the week....
http://newsthump.com/2017/10/04/boris-johnson-running-out-of-ideas-for-how-to-get-himself-sacked/
has he mde any other gaffs?
This week I assume?
I am sure he will come out with something shortly. Hasnt had anything racist for a while so bound to slip up again soon.
Boris is a liability
Agreed.
I am secretly hoping they keep him, whilst totally despising the moron.
Anything that displays this government as a pile of lying infighting pathetic morons is fine by me..
Brexit, I still think BloHard and his cronies ought to be brought up for treason .. but that’s for the EU thread.. and I remain steadfast in my opinion on that.
So, back to BloHard.. lying tosspot.
So if it is them. What do you expect the government to do? Nothing? Launch a Trident?
Surely doing something that has no effect gets the same result as doing nothing? And FIY, as amusing as it was seeing NZ claim they couldn’t find anyone to expel, they are a member of five-eyes, so if they wanted to find a Russian or two to expel, they could have. Basically, Adern decided she didn’t want to play this childish game, and quite right too.
One thing is definitely certain now: thanks to the government we’ll probably never know who actually carried out the attack. We have a foreign secretary who fabricates evidence, and a PM who appears to have no problem with that.
Surely doing something that has no effect gets the same result as doing nothing?
Kicking out a bunch of known spies will screw up the Russians to some extent. Probably nothing major but it will create a headache for them and a load of overtime catching up.
Going further than that though is going to be difficult. If governments were willing to do that it would have been done during the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the shooting down of the Malaysia airlines plane.
As much as I dislike Putin I do have to admire his ability to dance on the line and slowly move it.
One thing is definitely certain now: thanks to the government we’ll probably never know who actually carried out the attack.
Chances thats all we would ever know anyway even without the Maybot and the Johnson I want to PM machine. Without managing to get the relevant people into court and proving it satisfactorily it would never be sure and this lot seem to be more competent at hiding themselves than those who murdered Litvinenko. Boris Johnson seems to have given an open goal to the Russian trolls though.
As much as I dislike Putin I do have to admire his ability to dance on the line and slowly move it.
Yup, between him and Xi it's pretty clear who the adults actually are when it comes to global geopolitics compared to EU / NATO et al.