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Everyone is an expert because they read the news and so on.
dandax1990 - Member
Everyone is an expert because they read the news and so on.
Yeah bloody facts getting in the way of things.
Aye because the media always say it how it is...
You know a forum has been infiltrated by the far-right when the pejorative accusation is that the opposition are 'do-gooders'! Those no-good non-fascist news-reading do-gooders!
Hahaha. Quality.
It's always good to have a thread like this and watch the bigots get flushed out, it's almost like the job of beaters on a pheasant shoot! 😉
So, why exactly am I part of the 'far right'?
Have I expressed any racist views? If so, where?
"The counter demonstrators are just looking for a fight" is just made up stuff by people who tend to be sympathetic towards bigots.
these people must be sympathetic towards bigots then 😉
barnsleymitch - MemberRather than add to some of the comments posted on the 'happy st George's day' thread, I think it's worth discussing how people feel about neo Nazi organisations such as the bnp and edl. In the late 80's and early 90's, I was involved in anti fascist groups, occasionally in a quite, how can I put this, fairly robust and direct manner. Back then, our actions were fairly regularly commented on as being no better than those of the right wing groups we were protesting against. My opinion was, and still is, to be honest, that your average Nazi isn't going to be troubled in the slightest by newspaper sales or t-shirt / leafletting campaigns
Junkyard - lazarustolerance of all but the intolerant is my motto and free speech is fine but they have a long record of insightment and criminals within their organisation - EDL guy is a convicted football hpooligamn , beat his partner and is noe in a US prison so it is also more than his ideas he actually does nasty things as no dount do his followers
You cannot beat fascism with some tutting or a well worded pamphlet
Direct action is needed against this sort IMHO /IME
It a littl like pacifisim
I subsbcribe to it but would have take up arms against Hitler but not any other war in the last century as sometimes you have to fight even thopugh you would rather not.
barnsleymitch - MemberI'm still struggling with the concept of free speech when it's used by any group to encourage hatred or promote violence towards others. The irony isn't lost on me that I've personally used violence against fascists in the past, and had it used against me, but I fail to see any other course of action in dealing with neo nazis. I suppose that makes me just another knuckle dragger then...
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/protesting-against-the-far-right
I personally feel that violent street protest doesn't have a place in a functioning democracy, but I must be a bit unfashionable
[b]dandax 1990[/b] So
1) do you think that Mr Robinson/Lennon/Yaxley-Lennon has a record which a) genuine, b) a fit-up by the rozzers... given that it includes fraud, using someone elses passport and - apparently assaults of the Police, fellow EDL members and a partner...?
2) do you not see that a party/organisation which defines itself by what it [i]hates[/i], rather than what it [i]values [/i]risks being a negative and hateful body which is a focal point for every violent hate-filled inadequate nutjob?
For the record - I incline to the Christopher Hitchen's view. We should certainly not judge most Muslims by the behaviour of some of their clerics. BUT there is something sinister about how suppression of differing opinions and violent ways of enacting this has become part of the accepted MO of some Islamic organisations.
What we should be doing is being inclusive in offering Muslims support in resisting that. Not the appalling comments seen in the image above which show how the EDL and similar organisations can attract people who are just haters.
The Christian Right in the US do have the capacity to become similar in suppression, if rather less violent. And the Catholic Church has a past history which has been allied to violence towards heretics centuries ago, and support of violent regimes more recently.
Education is the ONLY thing that's going to resolve these issues not violence. And I'm not taking about 1+1 =2 kinda thing, I'm talking about educating people to see another's world view. And there are negative views on both sides of our communities, and it all comes from fear and ignorance.
From my perspective I'm always amazed at the level of hatred towards women that the EDL have. It's just a piece of cloth, how does that become this thing of hate??. Just don't get that
dandax1990 - Member
So, why exactly am I part of the 'far right'?Have I expressed any racist views? If so, where?
Guilty conscience? Where have you been acccused of being part of the far right?
have usually had significant personal issues to deal with - low self esteem, insecurity, anger issues, difficulty coping with change etc
After the whole 29er "revolution" (no pun intended) I'm suprised there's not more racists/ bigots on STW then 😆
From my perspective I'm always amazed at the level of hatred towards women that the EDL have
So the EDL hate women aswell??
Replace do-gooders with idiots if you prefer...
patriotpro - Member"The counter demonstrators are justNOT just looking for a fight" is just made up stuff by people who tend to be sympathetic towards do-gooding counter-demonstrators...
Ah, so you believe they're doing good, though?
If we can shoot rabbits, we can shoot fascists.
So people who oppose the EDL are idiots?
I personally feel that violent street protest doesn't have a place in a functioning democracy, but I must be a bit unfashionable
I suppose it depends on what you mean by violent street protest [ or functioning democracy] but much of the movement on human rights and many other rights are a result of direct action - the powers that be wont give us the crumbs unless they really have to
Womens vote
Black rights in the US
Kilder trespass
Bristol Bus boycott
big_n_daft - MemberI personally feel that violent street protest doesn't have a place in a functioning democracy
Perhaps you should stop being an apologist for the EDL then ?
functioning democracy
Questionable
How do you know what they did in the sea seeing as you did not see any?
Try not to contradict yourself
Erm, try not to second guess. The 'Muslim' women were mostly from Holland and Turkey.
Do-gooders are idiots but not because they oppose edl. I imagine they were idiots long before the edl was a twinkle in its founders' eyes. Ignorant, albeit useful for some, mugs, god love em...
Perhaps you should stop being an apologist for the EDL then ?
If you stop being one for the do-gooders, I sense a deal might be on the table...
Have you thought that when your insult is do gooder you have a particularly weak argument??
I use argument in a rather liberal sense as you seem intent on only getting a rise from folk.
i dont know which is the more tragic the views you use to do this or the fact you do it.
If you stop being one for the do-gooders, I sense a deal might be on the table...
But I don't have a problem. It's big and daft who wants to defend the EDL but not support them in what they do. A bit like you really.
You're quick to come to their defence but of course you don't support them. Dandax is another one.
I'm quite relaxed defending do-gooders and support them wholeheartedly.
Down with do-badders up with do-gooders I say. ( unless they are god bothering do gooders I dont like them).
It's big and daft who wants to defend the EDL but not support them in what they do
I'm not defending the EDL, I'm happy to defend the right of people to hold lawful peaceful protest. Just because I don't agree with their views doesn't mean I feel the need to dismiss them
interestingly is the standpoint of the former EDL leader which is now that the EDL demonstrations actually provided a reason for Muslims to become radicalised and were fundamentally counterproductive
but of course Ernie we should just go for mass summary justice and shoot them all like your personal hero and namesake did with the political opposition, those who disagreed with him or deserted his cause
Down with do-badders up with do-gooders I say.
Yeh, that's it really. Although I think Tommy's point was there are loads of do-badders who are Muslim. I don't know for sure, I've only heard of that Choudary **** and that other ****er who cut off that soldiers head a few months ago.
The thing is, Tommy's not the sharpest tool in the shed, and likely he appealed to those morons with skin heads who also arent particularly sharp.
If he was a bit brighter and he'd gone about things differently, maybe he'd have been more successful.
I'm not defending the EDL, I'm happy to defend the right of people to hold lawful peaceful protest.
But the EDL has alcohol fueled demonstrations which are anything but peaceful, and still you support their right to hold them.
[b][i]“I acknowledge the dangers of far right extremism and the ongoing need to counter Islamist ideology not with violence but with better, democratic ideas.”[/i][/b]
That's a quote from that famous do-gooder Tommy Robinson.
Tommy Robinson has been to quite a few EDL demos and apparently he wants nothing more to do with them because of the violence.
Why don't you have the courage of your convictions and admit that you support the EDL and that it has nothing to do with "the right of people to hold lawful peaceful protest".
It's about the right of drunken thugs to intimidate sections of society in the streets of our cities. That's what you're defending.
He's not interested in "peaceful protest" :
[img] http://caveviews.blogs.com/.a/6a00d8341bffd953ef019aff5b9390970d-pi [/img]
He's interested in intimidating people.
But the EDL has alcohol fueled demonstrations which are anything but peaceful, and still you support their right to hold them.
if they are not peaceful they aren't lawful, therefore they should be policed appropriately. But that's policed by the police force not by a group of self appointed vigilantes who attract their own thugs
Why don't you have the courage of your convictions and admit that you support the EDL and that it has nothing to do with "the right of people to hold lawful peaceful protest".
because I don't support them, I don't support the "former" paramilitaries that are now in political office in Northern Ireland either. These groups represent really nasty aspects of our society but we now recognise some of their political wings and have given them real power in our society.
does that mean I am on your list for the show trials and summary execution on the day of the revolution Ernesto?
if they are not peaceful
What do you mean "if" ?
The EDL's leader until yesterday claims that he is ending all involvement with the organisation because of the violence.
He says that he has left the EDL because of the [i]"need to counter Islamist ideology not with violence but with better, democratic ideas"[/i]
The EDL only organises street demos, it doesn't do anything else. When its former leader talks of violence associated with the EDL he is talking about EDL demonstrations.
There's no "ifs" about it.
"We" didn't "give" anybody in Northern Ireland power. Their electorate did that. In democratic elections. Not sure why you've tried to shoehorn your opinion on that into this thread twice. They're not related. But your incorrect statement bears correction all the same.
does that mean I am on your list for the show trials and summary execution on the day of the revolution Ernesto?
Why are you calling him Ernesto? If you're going to insult someone at least use fitting insults.
“The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink" - Ernesto "Che" Guevara
I don't think that represents the views of Ernie, do you?
Tom
I suggest you ask Ernie to dig out the thread where he explains the origin of his online name
Deadly
What was all the fuss about the Good Friday Agreement?
Ernie
If they are all violent they should be policed as such
So the EDL leader until a couple of days ago characterises EDL demonstrations as violent, as indeed most people do, and you dispute that.
That's fantastic ! 🙂
Deadly
What was all the fuss about the Good Friday Agreement?
Yeah, I know all about that. Who votes them in?
Anyway, let's try and stick to the point rather than diverting the argument eh?
I suggest you ask Ernie to dig out the thread where he explains the origin of his online name
I suggest you take on board their question/point
He may have a nom de plume with links to Che but it does not mean he agrees with everything he ever said/did. I am not sure why, when someone gave you a good example, you are struggling with this rather simple concept or labouring this rather weak ad hom.
I think there are aspects of the anti fascists that are distasteful or equally keen on direct confrontation. However if you think fascism can be beaten with some tutting and pamphlet you are very much mistaken. the same may be true of revolutionary communism or extremist Islam. Extremists tend to not listen to rational debate , despite this I am trying to do it with you 😉
Where we draw the line on direct action/violence criminality is complex and hard to quantify. I doubt a debate with big n daft will bring any clarity to this; we will see a lack of respect on both sides though.
Surely people living up to their screen name is the one argument that big n daft has the upper hand in..?
Although big n daft racist wally might be more appropriate
weak ad hom
Oooh the ironing!
Extremists are defeated by education, not street violence no matter how "just" your cause is
I guess it's easier to launch another weak attack rather than look at your own behaviour or offer a defence of your goading behaviour.
Extremists are defeated by education
Can you illustrate that with a historical example?
US Spending on education increases in an attempt to defeat extremism:
[img] 
[/img]
Education may help combat extrem[i]ism[/i] but I think it's educating the population limiting the recruiting grounds for extremists rather than chucking a load of text books at actual extremists.Extremists are maybe defeated by education
but I'm just guessing here
Oooh the ironing!Extremists are defeated by education, not street violence no matter how "just" your cause is
But you wouldn't want to 'defeat' the extremist EDL anyway would you?
I'm not sure that comparisons with Adams and McGuiness are entirely irrelevant here - let's look at the impact of change - regardless of whether you're comfortable with a former IRA commander being in a position of power, overall the situation for people living in Northern Ireland is much, much better than it was a couple of decades ago, and to get from there to here a lot of people have had to shift their positions an awful lot, on all sides. That's how it works in the real world.
So, as for Tommy the hooligan, what he's done this week is a good, positive thing, regardless of his motivation. A former EDL leader denounces violent thuggery and racist / Nazi messages. How can that be anything other than a good thing? Is it less of a good thing because of other things he's done and said previously? No, it's still a good thing, and I'm glad it has happened.
