[Closed] What happens if family empties bank accounts after somebody dies?

Did she leave a valid will ?

I'd think that sounds Dodgy just emptying accounts before due process.

He's now been told she has. We assume leaving everything to her family (which is not an issue).

They are still married, all her money goes to him in the absence of a will. Unless the family members have POA they should not have had access to the bank accounts and even then its dodgy once the person has died IIRC.

On the wills, they had none when they split up, being told now she made one. Obviously dad would need to check this.

England or Scotland?

I've just been doing some of this stuff as executor of a relative's estate, having previously had Power of Attorney.

I'm pretty sure that is naughty. As soon as a bank is notified that an account holder has died, then an account should be frozen.

If they have used POA to do this then I think that is illegitimate for two reasons. First of all, POA dies with the person and seecond, you are supposed to use POA in the best interests of the person for whom you have it, and I don't see how emptying their bank account is in their best interest.

For probate purposes the value of the account will be that when the person died so ultimately I imagine the executor will end up having to recover the money

I think I'd raise it with the bank now, though. It looks as if the relatives have been naughty and the sooner this is rectified the better. If the bank let it go through because nobody had told them the account holder had died, then it is understandable that it happened but the bank needs to put it right and can probably just reverse the transactions.

Who is the executor?

I’d think that sounds Dodgy just emptying accounts before due process.

It is and I'd say possibly illegal. The accounts should be immediately frozen. Assets payed into an executors account and not dispersed untill probate is granted.

How did they access the account?

Having just wrapped up my Dad's accounts it took a copy of the grant of probate and certified death certificate to get the accounts closed and the money moved. After death the bank froze the accounts except for interest accruing.

If they have cleared out the accounts then it suggests to me that either the bank didn't know the person had died and they accessed the money or that they had the probate and death certificate.

If they have done this within a short time frame then my money if on the former, not the latter as probate takes weeks to get.......

I got him to flag the transaction on his joint account to the bank as possibly fraudulent. They noted it, but once they heard the circumstances don't think much will happen, they said they need the death certificate ASAP to formalise freezing that account.

He's not had the death cert yet, or any info on will, executor, solicitor etc. so from his perspective, the process hasn't started yet.

How did they access the account?

From the 'oops, sorry' message, she left them her banking credentials, which they used.

If they have done this within a short time frame then my money if on the former, not the latter as probate takes weeks to get

In this scenario where a couple has separated, can probate all happen without the husband's involvement at all if he's not a beneficiary, named her own executor etc? Thinking about it, how can they work out what her estate is if there was no formal divorce/financial settlement between them? She died 3 weeks ago, could they get a grant of probate in that time?

Our family have zero issues with her will, just unclear what should happen.

she left them her banking credentials, which they used.

Fraud then? Report it to Bank and Police.

England or Scotland?

England, although he is/they were expat. Does that make any difference?

England, although he is/they were expat. Does that make any difference?

Shouldn't make any difference if they're UK accounts. 3 weeks doesn't sound enough time to get a legal position to empty the accounts. Took longer than that when my grandad died and he was alone with a solid will, executor established and clear POA

It needs to be made clear to the relatives that they have committed a number of offences and need to put every penny back immediately so the estate can be dealt with in an orderly way.

My suspicion would be there is no will and they are getting the money before it goes to the husband

I would do as Martin says with perhaps a veiled threat of reporting the crime which is what it seems to be

Families and money when someone dies can behave so badly. I have seen families in dispute where one part has stripped the room of all the sentimental photos before the body was cold

Seems highly illegal. I would do what others have suggested and make it clear that the money goes back into the accounts otherwise police will be informed.
Depending on who is dealing with probate it could get amusing too as there is no reason why they couldn't ask for the bank account totals at the time of death. If there are withdrawals after the time off death then someone is up for fraud

Isn't it theft?

Whether an account is frozen depends on it being in just the deceased person's name, joint/shared accounts won't be frozen.

When my dad died I got the job of going into town and doing the official stuff. First job was register the death at the registrar's office, it just happened to be my best man's mum who was on duty that day. With note from her it was over to the bank to notify them and freeze the accounts. Since this was back in the day when you actually got service from high street banks and the staff knew you (or in this case my dad), all well and good. Then down the road to the family solicitors to let them know and get their side in motion.

Except a couple of problems. At the time my dad and brother were named partners in the farm so freezing the accounts would mean that my brother would have difficulty paying the various feed bills. Fortunately a couple of the accounts were in both their names so he could continue. Then the solicitor rang us up to say monies had gone from one of the frozen accounts so the bank hadn't actually frozen it so that took a bit of sorting out, seems they'd assumed all the accounts were in joint name.

Wills: if someone dies without a will then the entire estate (at the time of death but after any taxes) passes to the spouse if there is one or split amongst other relatives if there are any. Marriage or divorce nullifies any will you might have made and you should make a new one. The will has to be signed by the individual to be valid.

Back to my dad: after my mum died he had a new will drawn up but didn't sign it. We happened to find it in a drawer in his bedroom! Off to the solicitor who laid out the options: go with the unsigned will since that was his intent; go with the signed but annulled will from prior to my mum's death; come to an agreement between ourselves (my brother and I were the only beneficiaries). Basically the will is there to try and prevent squabbles between the beneficiaries.

My understanding from my dad who is currenlty dealing with his sisters accounts is that bank accounts are genrally not frozen on death. I think in part as the account might be used for things like paying unitlities on her home.

@mrmoofo yes it would be theft, but also unless given permission to withdraw money on behalf of someone I think it would also be fraud.
difficult to prove someone has given permission if they are dead

@ampthill - things like rent, utility bills, council tax can be taken from a deceased person's account since the property is still there but there has to be proof that those are the reasons. Thinking back I think the solicitor had access to my dad's account and would monitor/authorise such payments. I don't know if that's common/standard practice or not.

My dad died long enough ago that things like direct debits and standing orders weren't as common as they are now so I don't know how they get dealt with - presumably the bank provides a list of such outgoings and the family/executors have to stop the unnecessary ones like club membership and inform those involved.

OP, you stated that there are no wills, if so then someone needs to apply to administer the estate (known as Grant of Letters of Administration where there is no will). Your dad, as surviving spouse (even though separated) has priority to apply.

All monies must be returned so that the administrator of the estate can deal with it properly. The repurcussions of failing to do so are severe.

No will means that the rules of intestacy will apply. Surviving spouse gets all assets upto £250k + personal possessions. Anything above this amount is then split 50:50, between spouse and children of deceased.

Thanks all, lots to look into. My wife has been through this for both her parents, so I know roughly what's involved, but they had everything in order and the family solicitor was very hot on keeping tight control of the estates.

He's not well enough to travel back here unfortunately, I'll look into if I can represent his interests from over here.

OP, you stated that there are no wills

When they split up, there were no wills. He's been told today by her family she has a will now (but we have no evidence of that yet).

It will also depend upon how much money is in the accounts as to how the banks will/should deal with them after a customers death there is something like a £10k or £20k threshold above which things are different - joint accounts will often just be a case of deleting deceased name from the account. +1 that no will = money should go to surviving spouse.

Yeah I'd say they've broken the law!

When they split up, there were no wills. He’s been told today by her family she has a will now (but we have no evidence of that yet).

Weirdly enough, I've recently found out that it is very difficult to get access to a will until after probate has been granted - been trying to get access to one for a mate who's dad passed away and probate Court, my solicitor and lloyds bank who are administering the estate all say its not possible for him to get to see his father's will

The law regarding dying intestate in Scotland and England are different in terms of who inherits IIRC

That said my initial feeling is that it's fraud or theft

Well, if the will is valid, then the intestacy rules no longer apply. Interested to see who the appointed executors are.

Fact remains, that monies should be returned immediately.

My understanding from my dad who is currenlty dealing with his sisters accounts is that bank accounts are genrally not frozen on death. I think in part as the account might be used for things like paying unitlities on her home

Actually the utilities are normally very good in these situations and will normally pause any requirement for payment until the estate is settled.

Bank accounts are frozen (or should be).

In my experience, much of the above sounds pretty much bang on. My dad died in Jan, and we had his accounts frozen by the bank (NatWest) within a working day or so; the bank didn't need Death Certificate for that at the time, but I did get them a copy a few days later as confirmation. Past experience suggested that our stepmother might have made efforts to help herself, much as she'd been doing for several years while he was alive, even though she is one of the beneficiaries along with me & my two brothers. Getting Probate sorted was a long, drawn-out affair, but the solicitors have made it clear to anyone calling on his account(s) that they'd just have to wait, which means a couple of debts are just getting paid off now in October.
It's my understanding that current accounts in a sole name are expected to be frozen at death, but joint accounts pass automatically to the surviving spouse. So the bank may well be implicitly at fault here for allowing them to empty any of the accounts, no matter how that came about. I assume they probably had online access, and have just transferred the money out. But if that's the case, and she HAD left a will leaving it to them anyway, you have to wonder why they felt the need to do so before due process had taken place. All sounds a bit dodgy/naughty/out of order/illegal, put like that.