Well I'd be wanting fresh Ciabatta delivered to my desk every day, so factor that one in.
He doesn't make his own bread? Next he'll be telling us he rides a bike too.
I've always gone high - 25-30% and no have got every job sometimes after they negotiated me down a little
First time they ask:
"I am much more interested in <type of work> at <name of company> than in the size of your initial offer"
Second time they ask:
"I will consider any reasonable offer"
Third time they ask, and any other time they ask:
"You are in a much better position to know how much I am worth to your business than I am"
Yeah but you might get blown out for being difficult. I don't think it unreasonable for companies to want to filter out those who'd only join them for a salary above what they're happy to pay.
Tell them what you want to earn.
I'm pretty sure you'll have a good idea what you'll be happy to move to a new job for, tell them that figure. If there's a metaphorical pursing of lips and an intake of breath, you know to chalk it down to experience and walk away.
I am enjoying the cloak and dagger stuff from some though...
[i]The whole thing is bullshit if you ask me.[/i]
I agree!
I don't think it unreasonable for companies to want to filter out those who'd only join them for a salary above what they're happy to pay.
Likewise, it's not unreasonable for an individual to ask what the salary is for a particular position to filter out those employers who offer shit money.
Don't you find that out when you say what you want?
Maybe my line of work is easier than some for this as I know roughly what people will have to pay for various relevant roles for me. Having said that I think they always give a salary range to indicate what level of person they want.
the absolute maximum I can squeeze out of you for the absolute minimum level of work from me
IMHOits pretty crap to offer a job with no salary and I would reply with an equal complete level of information.
it would depend on overall package of benefits including car, location, hours, pension, holidays and the prevailing market rate etc
Ie say nothing but answer the question
Why don't you do bit of research and find out what the market rate for the job is? Then add say 10%
It's a trick question to shorten the list
I am incredibly glad I did not make any suggestions about salary for my current role.
They appear to have used the formula:
Our offer = A x B + C + D + E + F
Where:
A = the aspirational salary of someone doing your job in London
B = 2
C = a load of cash, because it's easier than dealing with your expenses
D = uplift because you'll be paying less tax
E = bonus
F = cakes
The result of my agent's strategic vagueness on my salary aspirations is pay roughly 3x what I'd have happily settled for, plus some cake.
Im currently looking for a new job and have come across a few job adds with the competitive salary line. So far the ones ive researched i.e googled company reviews by employee and customer have been less than favourable. Where as ones with what id consider a competitive salary advertised the same reviews seem to put the company in a better light.
They also tended to have what appears to be a copy and paste generic add that contained no actual role specific information of any use , just they the company is amazing and that you should want to work for a them
Do some research - pitch at top end of market rate + 10% plus relocation (again research it - double the "actual" cost).
Add a proviso that you're happy to negotiate on the figure you quote for the right role and package - this shows flexibility and willingness to compromise.
The result of my agent's strategic vagueness on my salary aspirations is pay roughly 3x what I'd have happily settled for, plus some cake.
I don't believe you on the cake.
Whereas I work for a piddly wee charity, where I get paid about 0.3 of what I thought I would settle for, but do get lashings of cake. A team meeting cannot be convened without a small barrow load of scones, for example. Whether this makes up for the salary deficit is not a discussion I want to have, however deep down I know it is a thorn I must grasp.
Anyone looked at glassdoor to see what people say about their company? Only bigger ones on there I guess.
I'd assumed that employers have access to previous income via your P45 or the like to work out tax? I could be completely wrong...would love to know one way or other.
So would I. So I asked our HR Manager.
She reckoned that whilst they do get partial financial details through P45s et al, it would be very difficult to work out an exact salary given the many variables that could apply. Also, it'd be a lot of work for very little gain and she felt it'd be highly unusual for management to ask for that sort of information.
Which makes sense, of course. If it were to come out in the wash that you'd fibbed about your previous role, the fact remains that they've made you an offer based on what they [i]think [/i]you're worth, not what someone else did. The more I think about it, the more I think it's broadly irrelevant what your previous employer paid. What if you're changing careers? Should your new salary be related to your old if you're moving say from technical to management, or from sales to retrain as a plumber?
TL;DR - "What are your career aspirations / expectations" and "what were you on at the last place" are two very different questions.
On a sample of two countries I can say that the UK has a huge spread of wages per role compared to Sweden.
The more I think about it, the more I think it's broadly irrelevant what your previous employer paid.
100% agree, which is why I got quite frustrated with said investment banks approach. I'd been honest with 'what I'm on' because they said they'd sack me if they found out I'd exaggerated it. They then used that as a negotiation tool to insist on a lower salary than others on the same role. If they had no way to prove it, it is just a nasty tactic, which is actually the feeling I had and why I declined the offers - if they treat you like that when they are trying to attract you....
I also thought what if you were a contractor earning £££ per day with zero benefits vs a lower paid permie with a final salary pension. The basic is only one variable so seems silly to create an arbitrary rule.
Thanks for checking out with your friendly HR person, interesting to get anothers perspective
Thank you all for your insight and opinions. I agree entirely with everything Cougar said.
It's hard to say what the market rate is because it's a bit of a niche and not many companies have them (it's still a desk job at a corporate though, it's not as rare as being the Pope or something).
In the end, I replied by saying "I understand the market rate to be x to 1.5x. That's a bit vague but when we know how much support I'd have and how mnay people I'd cover, it'll be easier to fix a figure. Also, you awful people probably don't even know how much a hummus import would cost, so I'd need to work that out too". (I didn't say that last bit and it's not really about fine foods - it's about being at the wrong end of the country from my family). I thought being all "tell me how much you [i]think[/i] I'm worth" would come across a bit unhelpful or smart alecky.
Go high, if it's a US corporate they'll wnat your soul on a silver platter for it.
I don't have much of soul to sell...
I'm still interested to know which awful provincial town we're talking about.
does it matter? they're all the same 😛
I see, you're one of [i]them[/i]
naw, actually, it's not about living in the provinces, it's the fact that I'd prefer to be close to my family for personal reasons.
So throw them a bone. Suggest that you would consider compressed hours or a four day week or somethingy to be a benefit ?
Some jobs will ask you to sign a consent to gather data from your former employers including salary btw. Not sure this is ethical, it is hardly freely given, but it happens.
Liking "...but also to be reviewed in 6 mnths and 1 year based on my forthcoming levels of performance in the role". Does that happen in the real world? That first salary negotiation is important. It sets the level for further changes.
The first value described will set the room for subsequent negotiation.
They've asked for salary expectations. Give them something to go on based on whatever evidence you can find to start with: Glassdoor.com, folks currently in the job, folks who've worked for them before... Once you've set the starting value and they've not rejected you then it's a matter of negotiation for holidays, study leave, bonuses, etc. Sounds like it isn't a job you really want though?
just as a followup comment: I had an hourlong phone interview, we loved each other, he asked me to a second interview and just as we were hanging up he said "btw I don't see the note about your salary expectations here, did you tell them to the recruiter?". I said "yes, I said between x and y". there was a long pause and then he said "that's...much more than anyone else and I'm not sure we should continue next week". dozy recruiter hadn't passed it along...fark if you're gonna neither disclose the salary nor read what I say...
"that's...much more than anyone else and I'm not sure we should continue next week".
Not sure if thats paraphrasing, but interesting that he didn't say more than we'd pay you, but more than anyone else. Sounds like there's a big pay/quality trade off going which sucks.
it's probably not his exact words but it's close to what he said
I've got the skills and experience for the job, and I think I'm worth it. If I solve one problem early, I'll have covered my salary for the year... But otoh if he can get that somewhere else for cheaper - good luck to him, I suppose, and I hope the rest of the employers don't hear about it!
"that's...much more than anyone else and I'm not sure we should continue next week...
" I can understand your hesitation, but it seems through the conversation we have just had, that I have a skill set and approach that is an excellent match for the position. Can I suggest that we put the salary package aside for now, go ahead with the interview and if I am the best candidate on skill, experience and fit with the company we come back to salary and benefits? After all, are you looking for the best candidate or the cheapest ? "
Worth a punt, and your call on the last sentence.... ?
"Well I ain't cheap, but then the good shit never is" 😀
Well that once again begs the question, why don't they just publish what [i]they[/i] think the job is worth, rather than attracting over-qualified people to apply and then wasting everyone's time?
rickmeister - Member
"that's...much more than anyone else and I'm not sure we should continue next week...
" I can understand your hesitation, but it seems through the conversation we have just had, that I have a skill set and approach that is an excellent match for the position. Can I suggest that we put the salary package aside for now, go ahead with the interview and if I am the best candidate on skill, experience and fit with the company we come back to salary and benefits? After all, are you looking for the best candidate or the cheapest ? "
Excellent. Basically, backatcha. Always leave the door open in negotiations.
If they offer you the job you are in a better position as now you know they want you and think you are the best so you have more power than before hand
I would not apply for a job that did not state salary
They would not consider me if I was equally vague about my experience and qualifications
Alot of jobs in Science dont have a wage advertised.
Im never sure why really.
I think they just expect you to want to work there and in the field they are offering and wage wont difference !!!
Well that once again begs the question, why don't they just publish what they think the job is worth, rather than attracting over-qualified people to apply and then wasting everyone's time?
This, +1000. The Spanish IT sector is terrible for this, post up job offers but never include the salary range.
@junky. They often don't state salary as they don't want to piss the existing workforce off.
You're rarely in a stronger position to negotiate salary than on your way in. This means employees pay relative to market rate usually degrades over time. Makes the case for moving on every few years to reset and explains why sometimes they choose not to advertise the rate.
Im also weary of advertised jobs with no salary, hence dont apply for them that often. I prefer to know the range before i apply / waste everyones time, including myself.
"that's...much more than anyone else and I'm not sure we should continue next week".
"Sorry, I didn't realise you were aiming for second or third rate. Perhaps you should have included that in the advert"
If you are right at the top of the hiring managers budget, or even over it you and you'll be on significantly more than existing staff you may find you won't be getting much of a pay rise for quite some time if you do take the role.
Obviously depends on the size of the company and their pay policy. Bigger they are more likely the above.
I can understand your hesitation, but it seems through the conversation we have just had, that I have a skill set and approach that is an excellent match for the position. Can I suggest that we put the salary package aside for now, go ahead with the interview and if I am the best candidate on skill, experience and fit with the company we come back to salary and benefits? After all, are you looking for the best candidate or the cheapest ?
That's hands down the best way of ending that conversation. At the end of the day to me a job interview is a sales pitch - you're there to sell yourself and those who do will stand out above the rest.
I've got the skills and experience for the job, and I think I'm worth it. If I solve one problem early, I'll have covered my salary for the year... But otoh if he can get that somewhere else for cheaper - good luck to him, I suppose, and I hope the rest of the employers don't hear about it!
It's always very easy to find someone cheaper. Adding competent to that costs.
If they have a salary in mind, they should publish it. The lack of applicants or the stream of pish that turns up might demonstrate they are not in the right ball park.
Depends where in the country you're moving from too as well though surely?
I was looking at moving 'oop-north and it would entail a pay cut. Which was acceptable to me, but the missus pay would be cut by a similar ammount and as she earns less than me it was a much higher percentage (especialy after tax).
If I was asked that question for a job in Manchester or Teesside I'd have to set my sights at least 20% below what I'd ask for in the South East (or Abberdeen last year).
Their language i.e "aspiration" suggests to me that they are tightfists.
My aspirations and expectations are different things.
They are either at the cheap end of the market, or maxing profits at the expense of the staff.
The fact that they have indicated that it's not even worth meeting because of your salary [i]expectations[/i] would make me walk. Even if they pay you it, they'll be looking for ways to bring you back in line eventually and if they hit hard times the biggest expenditure will be first to go.
And the recruiter need a kick in the balls.
I would not apply for a job that did not state salary
Sadly, IME that's "most of them." It's really, really annoying. If they don't want the existing workforce to see offered salaries they should pay them properly on a fixed scale instead. If you think you've got something to hide because you've got two equally able people in the same position on a different salary, the fact is that you have.
Grr, argh, etc.