[Closed] Warning - unsolicited video download from STW ads can cost you money!

CountZero I did also say;

[i]I think it should perhaps be made clearer what EpicTV does.

Even on unlimited connections such as work ones having an stw browser open for long periods even if you're not visiting it is likely to cause eyes to be cast in your direction... [/i]

so whilst I think stw have every right to deliver whatever content they see fit to those not paying to view the site (and I guess to those that are although there's a different cost/benefit analysis to be done there) I do also acknowledge that EpicTV may need a clearer indication of the potential cost to non-paying/casual site visitors who spend more than a few minutes on here.

I'd be really, really pissed if I suddenly got a big bill for exceeding my data allowance because some advertiser had been sending unsolicited video to my computer and gobbling up my entire bandwidth allowance in the process.
It may not be illegal, but it's certainly unethical,

You overlooked "unintentional." My understanding is that it appears to be using more data that it should, the hamsters have engaged with EpicTV and are working to improve it. Though, how much of it is actually possible to change I've no idea, have to wait and see I guess.

That said, tethering a PC to a phone with a small data allowance is asking for problems, STW aside. Personally I wouldn't do it, for exactly this reason. Many sites detect a "mobile" browser and scale themselves accordingly (including STW AFAIK); if you're tethering, you bypass this safeguard.

there's a different cost/benefit analysis to be done there

Put it this way; it's not likely to be going away any time soon.

cynic-al - Member

maccruiskeen - Member
Preferences - Advanced - Internet plugins

plug-ins is under Preferences / security and I have already unticked "allow all other plug ins" (while java is allowed)

I presumed unticking java would stop loads of stuff that's needed for work.

Its also under 'advanced' as a power saving option and thats the box to tick to stop the video loading

That said, tethering a PC to a phone with a small data allowance is asking for problems, STW aside.

However my folks on a landline package have a 2gb deal as they don't use much, so it's not just tethering that is an issue. Outside of the UK plenty of people don't actually have access to landlines or broadband connections and rely on mobile plans to use the internet. [b]Nobody should assume that everyone is using a super fat connection[/b]. Most sites that use more than expected data give some warnings about it.

In an ideal world people would all have a nice unlimited package.

😆

Outside of the UK plenty of people don't actually have access to landlines or broadband connections and rely on mobile plans to use the internet

With a 2Gb download limit?

Nobody should assume that everyone is using a super fat connection

I refer you to the paragraph prior to the one you quoted. The TL;DR version is, "no-one did."

Bear in mind though, from a webdev perspective you need to be realistic. Running a full-fat browser on a severely limited data allowance is a fringe case. No website can possibly be expected to cater for every possible user configuration; should the devs be worrying about support for Mosaic, Link and IE3 just in case?

Most sites that use more than expected data give some warnings about it.

Really? I've never seen that warning.

There seem to be some condescending and patronising comments regarding people's choice of internet supply.
This is not the issue. It only aggravates everyone when such stupidity is said.
The issue is one advert.
It probably would do STW good to pause it's usage until a solution can be found.

Epic TV was bringing my netbook to a halt. Often I have a number of tabs open in a browser when it shuts down and therefore when it opens - threads that are still alive that I'm interested in, and it was taking forever to sort itself out until I'd found the epic TV thing and disabled it. Petty rubbish if only from that POV.

Cougar I was referring to your comment about "tethering a PC to a phone with a small data allowance is asking for problems", I saw that it was unintentional and not something STW expected to happen but I can do most of the web surfing I want with a tiny amount of data, most sites keep the amount low which means it runs well on slow connections and also means a low data consumption.

For context a lot of people over here in Oz are on Data packages with low downloads as that is what they need and use, also due to the fact that they have no fixed connections to their properties or are in the middle of nowhere for work for 4-5 weeks at a time.

Now we all need to tweak browser settings to cut as much stuff out as possible, I have no issue with the way this place is funded but if the general internet trend of high data use and loud videos launching automatically will lead to more usage of plugins to stop it.

It probably would do STW good to pause it's usage until a solution can be found.

They are looking into the issue and what can be done. It won't be paused mean time.

Thanks for your cooperation. We all appreciate it.

Yesterday I placed a cap on it so it currently only displays a set number of times per session. I'm monitoring the effect of that and also looking into a cap that will disable it after a period of time so that it won't continue streaming if you leave a browser open and forget about it. These are things we can look at implementing at our end but we have also asked EpicTv to look into issues at their end too. When I know more I will report back here.

thanks for the update Mark, seems a reasonable solution, imo.

Thanks Mark

No website can possibly be expected to cater for every possible user configuration; should the devs be worrying about support for Mosaic, Link and IE3 just in case?

I've read this thread with interest and it does seem negligent to have an ad that uses your data/bandwidth without any form of notification. Tethering a laptop to your phone seems fair to me - why should anyone incur extra data plan costs to satisfy one advert?

It seems that events like this are only going encourage users to employ other methods of preventing this happening in the future - in which case it it might be short term gain, but long term pain for the site hosts.

Good of Mark to do what he can so quick but no way should a website think its acceptable to shove that amount of data down the line unless the viewer has specifically clicked play on something. Auto streaming is bang out of order. Ads are understandable but that goes beyond reasonable and if I ended up being charged I'd be cancelling my subscription. As it is I think I better not browse during work hours any more if the site has that flippant approach to the data usage of their user base.

how much does STW get from the epic TV adverts?
Perhaps can we cover the costs between ourselves and we can get the nonsense switched off. Thinking it might be less than £15, I'd willing to contribute a quid or two if other people are. Sound reasonable?
Does Mark own and run ST magazine then?

[i]Does Mark own and run ST magazine then? [/i]

*unsure if serious*

Perhaps can we cover the costs between ourselves and we can get the nonsense switched off

You can it's called Premier Light.

Sorry it took so long folks.

I'll sign up for Prem Lite when we get PM functions, avatars....and possibly sigs.

I'll sign up for Prem Lite when we get PM functions, avatars....and possibly sigs.

*unsure if serious*

First off - agree with what perthmtb said, and the way he said it.

Secondly, we need to be aware that we are not the customers, we are the product, served up to be sold to advertisers. That's not intended as a criticism of Mark et al, just a statement of a cynical truth. As such, maybe there are some consequences of selling us off to Epic ? If people pay for Premium ad-blocking, then we stop being salable to the other less intrusive ads.

I wonder at what point things are profitable for STW? How many Premium members are needed to pay for the site? How much advertising can you sell if most/all of your clickers are blocking the ads. Glad that's not my problem to solve 🙂

Cougar - Moderator

Outside of the UK plenty of people don't actually have access to landlines or broadband connections and rely on mobile plans to use the internet

With a 2Gb download limit?

Nobody should assume that everyone is using a super fat connection

I refer you to the paragraph prior to the one you quoted. The TL;DR version is, "no-one did."

Bear in mind though, from a webdev perspective you need to be realistic. Running a full-fat browser on a severely limited data allowance is a fringe case. No website can possibly be expected to cater for every possible user configuration; should the devs be worrying about support for Mosaic, Link and IE3 just in case?

Your tone is way off, especially someone who is a Mod.

I think you need to wind your neck in.

People are just asking questions.

Just remember to remain logged in if Premier, or login immediately if you wish to use the provided setting. Especially when at work, flagging to your IT guys that you're a heavy b/w user. I often browse logged out (browser at work nukes cookies on close), and login just to post. Not any more.
Just disabled all plugins for good measure.

Your tone is way off, especially someone who is a Mod.

I think you need to wind your neck in.

It's hard to judge tone in written text, but your phrasing sounds more aggressive and confrontation that Cougars.

FWIW, Cougar is right, it is a fringe case and you can't cater for everyone all of the time.

Most data limited services and especially ones that allow tethering to mobile devices warn you of the consequences of accidentally running up huge data usage, as in today's media heavy websites an allowance can be eaten through very quickly.

It's still a shonky implementation and I'm glad STW are listening to the concerns and doing something about it, but it's the users responsibility to monitor they're usage and not make assumptions about the websites they're using.

wwaswas - Member
Does Mark own and run ST magazine then?

*unsure if serious*

I cannot find a potted history of ST on the site so since I haven't been here since year dot perhaps you could fill me in?

I think you need to wind your neck in.

Coincidentally, that was the exact phrase that went through my mind when someone called me patronising earlier.

Here's the deal. I understand the need for advertising (and specifically, the EpicTV feed) from a commercial perspective. I also understand and empathise with people's frustrations when there are teething issues with changes to the site.

As a moderator, I'm trying to do what I can to help communication between the people who run the business (and let's not forget, it is a business) and the people who consume its products. I'm trying to provide as much transparency as I'm at liberty to give so that the forum users are kept in the loop rather than sitting there going "well this is all shit". I'm also trying to be objective; as however much revenue advertising does or does not generate, I see a small percentage of sod all. So I have no vested interest other than as a user of the forum who would quite like it to continue to exist.

So, I'm trying to provide explanations, manage expectations, and offer suggestions where I can (as I do elsewhere on the forum). If my efforts aren't good enough, I can always stop if you'd prefer?

If you don't like the tone of my responses so far, I'd wager you're [i]really[/i] not going to like the tone of the one I'd like to give you right now, because frankly I'm spitting feathers.

[i]I cannot find a potted history of ST on the site so since I haven't been here since year dot perhaps you could fill me in? [/i]

Ok, yes he does part-own Singletrack.

there's a sticky at the top of the forums;

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/our-forum ]http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/our-forum[/url]

written by Mark which gives a clear indication he's at least a part of it, though.

but it's the users responsibility to monitor they're usage and not make assumptions about the websites they're using

it's the webdev's responsibility to ensure that sites don't cause inadvertent unethical use of paid-for connections.

a meg here or there is fine. 2Gig over a day or so is not.

or give me a megabytemeter at the top of the page showing me how much data I've used (edit: and an alarm to tell me if I've used more than say 50meg that month).

surfing on a laptop when tethered is not a fringe case.

almost all "unlimited" data plans have limits.

I think you need to wind your neck in.

Now then, now then. We've all had a drink. The older lady that hunts out younger men, is possibly the most diplomatic member on here.

Let's just see what Mark comes back with; think the cases have been made!

Cougar - Moderator

I think you need to wind your neck in.

Coincidentally, that was the exact phrase that went through my mind when someone called me patronising earlier.

Here's the deal. I understand the need for advertising (and specifically, the EpicTV feed) from a commercial perspective. I also understand and empathise with people's frustrations when there are teething issues with changes to the site.

As a moderator, I'm trying to do what I can to help communication between the people who run the business (and let's not forget, it is a business) and the people who consume its products. I'm trying to provide as much transparency as I'm at liberty to give so that the forum users are kept in the loop rather than sitting there going "well this is all shit". I'm also trying to be objective; as however much revenue advertising does or does not generate, I see a small percentage of sod all. So I have no vested interest other than as a user of the forum who would quite like it to continue to exist.

So, I'm trying to provide explanations, manage expectations, and offer suggestions where I can (as I do elsewhere on the forum). If my efforts aren't good enough, I can always stop if you'd prefer?

If you don't like the tone of my responses so far, I'd wager you're really not going to like the tone of the one I'd like to give you right now, because frankly I'm spitting feathers.

Fire away.

Your tone is patronising. andytherocketeer is spot on with his post above. Instead of lecturing everyone on their use of the internet why not wait until you have a proper answer, I know this might upset you even more.. but some people here might be more knowledgeable about these things than you. Your tone is off.

It seems that events like this are only going encourage users to employ other methods of preventing this happening in the future - in which case it it might be short term gain, but long term pain for the site hosts.

Exactly this.

If you don't like the tone of my responses so far, I'd wager you're really not going to like the tone of the one I'd like to give you right now, because frankly I'm spitting feathers.

That's it, carry on antagonising the customers...

I looked to see what the fuss is about. Ads that flash and flicker, reverse polarity or jump around really annoy me. Think looking down a London Underground escalator only far worse. That Epic video jumps about and is of no interest, and I hear my PC's fan go up a gear or three. I'll stop there pre-ban.

But if I were a reasonable advertiser I'd be really miffed at all this and the likely outcome. I feel sorry for them.

Oh, and I'm on limited cheap broadband.

I suspect that getting £15/head off 10 people will make up for the ad revenue from a 1000+ casual visitors not coming back over the course of a year.

Looks to me like the cap is working, as it's not showing for me at the moment - no Premier membership and no software that must not be mentioned...

Thanks Mark!

Give Cougar a break. I'm not sure he's particularly helping (despite his best efforts) but he's not being out of order in any way either. 🙂

Secondly, we need to be aware that we are not the customers, we are the product, served up to be sold to advertisers. That's not intended as a criticism of Mark et al, just a statement of a cynical truth. As such, maybe there are some consequences of selling us off to Epic ? If people pay for Premium ad-blocking, then we stop being salable to the other less intrusive ads.

Insightful, and to add we are also in the main the content providers that bring people to the site in the first place, so STW have a difficult act to balance. Most of the lessons of the web show that not pissing off people with intrusive ads. and gaining further traction increases business long term.

That's it, carry on antagonising the customers...

Making friends and influencing people is your strong point Zokes well done.

surfing on a laptop when tethered is not a fringe case.

This is a forum for a UK-based magazine. Tethering aside, "being in Australia" is a fringe case.

How many people do you reckon surf the web using a full-blown PC browser tethered to some form of 3G modem? I can't readily find stats on it, but I'd be surprised if it's more than a fraction of a percent. I've done webdev in a past life, and trying to cater for every eclectic configuration out there is a bloody nightmare. You sweat blood trying to make sure that your pages render gracefully on everything from IE11 to Netscape 3, and then some heed still comes along and complains that it looks wrong on the hand-rolled TCP/IP stack on their Commodore 64.

Not that I'm saying the site shouldn't be accessible / usable in those cases; of course it should be. But if you're using a connection intended for comparatively low volume traffic and running an application on it (ie, a desktop browser) which is inherently designed to provide a fully-featured Web 2.0 experience, you're eventually going to hit this sort of problem. If it wasn't STW today, it'd have been somewhere else tomorrow. If it were me in that situation, the first thing I'd be doing is uninstalling Flash (which I have anyway in my primary browser cos it's hateful bloody software) and Java, and then probably disabling images as well.

As I said, the initial data usage of the plug-in was unintentional, and as per Mark's post they've now made preliminary changes to mitigate this. But I (personally) reject the implication that STW - or indeed any website - should be held accountable for your data usage. I for one don't want pop-ups on every other site going "warning, this site uses data", the stupid bloody pointless cookie acceptance dialogues that still persist all over the place like a bad smell are bad enough. We'll be having warnings on coffee cups that the contents might be hot next.

I don't feel sorry for EpicTv, it's quite frankly disturbing in it's output and I'd wager of no interest to 90% of folk on here. Revenue stream or not it should be a "click to download" option or click diversion to another brouser at the very least. To think STW went into the deal with EpicTv with blinkered eyes on it's output and demograph and probably didn't do any research into whether is was a "click & play" Ad or not..
I've subscribed to PremLight because I support the Mag and efforts here, however if I didn't I'd be off.
It is disturbing that site(s) like "ours" are just turning into Ad Boards, CN/BR and to some extent Road.cc is stearing down that path and it's annoying to say the least.
Ferkin Ad's following up and down the screen all the ferkin time...

It's like having your Mum shout at you 11 times "suppers ready" in a high pitch scream whilst you are playing with yer mates..

[quote=Cougar ]But I (personally) reject the implication that STW - or indeed any website - should be held accountable for your data usage. I for one don't want pop-ups on every other site going "warning, this site uses data", the stupid bloody pointless cookie acceptance dialogues that still persist all over the place like a bad smell are bad enough. We'll be having warnings on coffee cups that the contents might be hot next.
+1

Too much finger pointing going on when folk should be taking responsibility for their own actions and decisions.

FFS, it's 4p per day for a Premier Light subscription. If you're that worried about the consequences of using the forum, pay up and stop the whinging.

That's it, carry on antagonising the customers...

Oh you know what? I give up. Bollocks to you if that's how you feel, you can work it out for yourself. I've better things to be doing than trying to help people who just want to kick it straight back.

I'm bowing out of this thread before I get properly cross, and going to find a puppy to kick or something.

I'll sign up for Prem Lite when we get PM functions, avatars....and possibly sigs.

*unsure if serious*

I am deadly serious.

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