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Facing the possibility of losing a £500 deposit, I'm seriously wondering whether to cancel the purchase of my (diesel) car today. 😐
I've got about 90 minutes before I'm supposed to leave to do the deed.
Change the order to a petrol? Would you lose it though? Considering their product isnt really as described? 😀
I suspect with diesels it'll be a long slow drawn out decline, due to the sheer number of cars on the road.
Almost glad mine is now at 120k. Definitely glad I'm not in Krytons shoes /\/\/\
I used diesel vans all day at work and even though some are the latest BlueTec Mercedes engines the fumes are awful to be around. The amount of diesel cars I see on my commute puffing out soot (even the new ones) tells me this story may well be the tip of the iceberg. I just get the feeling that diesels test well due to their inherent pro's but used every day by the general public give massively different results. Maybe the test is unfit for purpose if it cannot replicate real-life usage. Whatever, I get a feeling this will be story that takes a long time to play out fully.
I was 50/50 whether to go for the diesel or petrol version of my Fabia last year, the extra £2k for diesel just swung it to petrol for me. Looks like I made the correct decision judging by all of this 🙂
As mentioned before I've already signed the papers for PCP with a guaranteed future value, so I have that. The worst that could happen is that its recalled to be modified, or replaced.
Diesel isnt going to vanish from the pumnps overnight.
Just a couple of points, then I'll leave you kids to carry on
😉
Parking restrictions impact business.
[url] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-33550763 [/url]
IMO, there appears to be a consistently present elephant in the room, during debates about car use and pollution, etc. That being the anti car types who never seem to get round to addressing some significant issues:
i, Do they actually own/use/rely on the use of a car?
ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?
iii, Are car emissions the sole cause of breathing related health issues?
I'll state that I do own and use cars and they're both diesel powered.
Facing the possibility of losing a £500 deposit, I'm seriously wondering whether to cancel the purchase of my (diesel) car today.I've got about 90 minutes before I'm supposed to leave to do the deed.
Dont worry.
At least you arent that guy thats going to get forced by his wife to spend £3k on some curtains or have a stove he doesnt want..
I do try very hard not to use our car, it's really an occasional bike carrier to be honest, probably gets used once a week / fortnight which I think is enough. Walk / ride for local stuff and train for further afield.
However, I am fairly horrified at this news, it is a VAG diesel and I am appalled at the damage I could have been doing. Will have to think about what we do though now as I swore long ago never to own another hateful bloody petrol powered car.
At least you arent that guy thats going to get forced by his wife to spend £3k on some curtains
Its amazing how some people cant read or interpret a post...
Well I'm off to pick up our new VW diesel powered Skoda in an hour.
**** the ice caps!
Well I'm off to pick up our new VW diesel powered Skoda in an hour
😀
Of course there is a plus side to this maybe - what if one/some manufacturers were proven to have not cheated the tests and are achieving the mpg/emissions legitimately? Maybe the value of thier cars would increase?
what if one/some manufacturers were proven to have not cheated the tests and are achieving the mpg/emissions legitimately?
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Given that BMW are one of the main culprits in misleading customers with false information I think you have excellent grounds for negociating your way out of your contract Kryton with lots of threats of legal action if they don't refund your deposit. You signed in ignorance and now have information which meands you can no longer morally drive such a car.
You knew after my posts on the petrol v diesel thread eight months ago but now you have a mass of magazine articles to support your decision.
When you know there's a problem, don't be apart of it. Don't be a part of poisoning people when you could drive something that would poison them less, and if you choose wisely produce no more CO2. May I suggest a VW Touran TSi.
Wheres the evidence? Nothing has been proven against BMW yet. And surely the same stands in a couple of weeks if I'm driving the car - I have the same grounds for giving it back and terminating the contract.
Can krypton sue everyone on here who's been pushing skodas for the last few yrs? He'd make up any loss in value of it when the Eco police de tune it if he could... 😉
i, Do they actually own/use/rely on the use of a car?
ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?
iii, Are car emissions the sole cause of breathing related health issues?
I) yes, it's a VW diesel
Ii) Nothing if what you're hinting at is some sort of government scheme
Iii) No but it's one of the primary causes and fixable so absolutely no reason not to. "Whataboutery" isn't a good argument.
Plenty has been proven about BMW; The only thing that hasn't been proven is they they have been deliberately cheating, just making cars that perform better in tests. Their cars are amongst the dirtiest in real use:
[url= http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/cleanaircampaign/article1560165.ece ]The Times[/url]
You'll have to pay for the full article or the [url= http://emissionsanalytics.com/sunday-times-nox-investigation-the-results/ ]results of the tests they commisioned[/url]
Why aren't the Euro2/3/4/5/6 emissions tests part of the MOT?
Good point. Emissions are tested at MOT, so what are the tests based on / guideline figures come from?
Wheres the evidence? Nothing has been proven against BMW yet
Nothing had been proven against VW yet, until they got caught.
Scary this. My Yeti I traded in on Saturday. On Monday the news really broke....Just remember the systems are developed in some cases by Bosch, Delphi, so it begs the question is it likely the other manufacturers have done it?
JeZ
re mot - nox isn't tested, see p9
Nothing had been proven against VW yet, until they got caught.
Also true for BMW who are one of two manufacturers to date - the other being Ford - to have released a statement denying any cheating in tests.
Also true for BMW who are one of two manufacturers to date - the other being Ford - to have released a statement denying any cheating in tests.
Daimler and Jaguar Land Rover have also denied any test cheating.
"Riding through stationary jams you can get that weird sooty 'taste'. Hard to describe but diesel smells/tastes horrible."
Yeah - i get that . Smells like unburnt petrol normally...
Unless your behind my landy in which case smells like chips 😀
Well, here is an interesting article - not sure if it is accurate or not, but I don't think I'll be buying a diesel any time soon.
http://www.lng.guru/the-great-euro-6-scam/
ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?
I guess you can try your luck joining a class action suit against the manufacturer. Not sure that is going to be a quick process ...
interesting read dr J - although just a random blog it certainly would seem that older diesels as well as having a longer life span typically (so less energy used to process the materials at either end) actually produce slightly less harmful shit.
I feel slightly better about keeping 30 and 15 year old trucks in good working order and not running out tobuy a new one every 3 years now like a good consumer.
Interesting that recently I got a lotbofmpressire to buy a diesel version of a car I was looking at when I had explicitly stated I wanted petrol. I am a cynic when it comes to business and there must be an economic reason for this, they either make more money upfront or more on servicing.
@Kryton, I don't see legally you have a way out of your deposit. I would say go ahead and if something is proven against BMW then you can get compensation/refund etc. You may be able to negotiate a lower price now, you may be able to defer delivery or get them to return your deposit on the basis they are implicated. You should be able to get compensation if any cheating means you have to pay higher road tax.
IMO everyone is at the same game to some degree (as I noted in 1985 the Software company I worked for was cheating at computer language benchmark tests in much the same way as VW). This is not new. The Californian tests are, I believe, more stringent than the Euro tests so the degree and serious of the cheating may not be the same.
"Riding through stationary jams you can get that weird sooty 'taste'. Hard to describe but diesel smells/tastes horrible."Yeah - i get that . Smells like unburnt petrol normally...
Unless your behind my landy in which case smells like chips
I frequently walk to work but have recently changed my route as the air is properly poisonous, thing is that route is lined with houses and shops young families, shop workers etc they can't change.
e mot - nox isn't tested, see p9
So theres a pretty easy answer then, a few million independent tests each year should keep them honest!
i, Do they actually own/use/rely on the use of a car?ii, If diesel is now to become overly villified, leading to signigicant financial losses for diesel car owners. What could and/or should be done about that?
iii, Are car emissions the sole cause of breathing related health issues?
i Yes, two both from the VW stable both diesel, I use them obviously, but not unecassarily.
ii " Overly vilified" subjective, quantify please as "significant loss" what if you compare it to the loss of breathable air then its unlikely to be significant! So no why should we be, they'll be little loss anyway maybe some resale value but proportionally small.
iii No but a very significant factor.
For the record I've worked in the motor industry 30 years, so not exactly a car hater but neither a blinkered petrolhead.
Whilst driving back from picking up said new VW engined Skoda diesel, some wag on the radio said he was waiting for a spate of "Have you been missold TDI?" TV ads!
Lol! We must have been listening to the same station. My drive back was lovely. Interesting article here, which shows Bmw countering the claim and specifying exactly which of thier engines use Urea, and mechanically how the others have passes the Euro tests. If this is to be believed - and why not - I'm fine.
Jambalaya - agreed.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/vw-emissions-scandal-other-manufacturers-deny-cheating
Remember when the cigarette companies put holes in the their filters and started printing the tar values on their packs? Well that's what a Euro 6 badge on a diesel amounts to, it's still a diesel.
it's still a diesel.
But it hasn't become the end of the world overnight either has it.
Reading the details of this, I think VW will be the ONLY manufacturer that will be found using a "defeat device".
No doubt others will have performed various other optimisations and made use of (legal) loopholes in the testing resulting in higher emissions, but I suspect none of them are illegal.
My guess is that someone high up in the company wanted the 2.0 TDI engine to meet US Nox restrictions so asked the techie team to come up with the solution. At somepoint, someone came up with this software hack as a proof of concept or during a brainstorming session or something (possibly with no intention of it going into production), then management got wind of it, did some testing and put it in the production cars without understanding all of the technical implications.
In large companies, there is always the problem that bad information never flows upwards - no-one likes giving their manager bad news. Hence, through a chain of incompetence, and people keeping quiet for fear of losing their jobs, this software ended up in the real-world.
However, I am fairly horrified at this news, it is a VAG diesel and I am appalled at the damage I could have been doing. Will have to think about what we do though now as I swore long ago never to own another hateful bloody petrol powered car.
Come on really?? I really do not understand the current backlash against VW. We all drive around in vehicles that are bad for the environment, that includes electric cars.
Its almost a 1st world issue that peoples ego's have been knocked because before they could drive around in ignorance
that their metal/plastic box was 'eco' so it was ok.
Cars are bad for the environment.
Buses and taxis appear to be even worse !
It might be the end of your world Kryton, check out premature deaths due to automobile pollution. Whilst the numbers killed by cars on our roads has steadily fallen since the seventies the number killed by atmospheric pollution worldwide has increased.
the number killed by atmospheric pollution worldwide has increased.
How many of those are proven to be directly related to diesel NOX output, and how many other influences like output from Volcano's, jet fuel, factories, China, weapons testing...
etc
Probably about the same number as proven to be directly killed by smoking: none.
I find the fuss coming from consumers a bit daft.
How many of them actually knew anything their vehicle's NOx emissions, or even cared?
Tell me what the manufacturer's NOx figures for your car are, without googling, go on, and also how that compares to other cars.
Well, Edukator - why sensationalise content you have zero evidence for?
Oh there's plenty of evidence and you don't have to look very hard. Whilst it's very difficult to pin one single death on an environmental cause when you start to look at the distribution and demographics of disease there's lots of evidence to show pollution kills.
[url= http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/10/101005-planes-pollution-deaths-science-environment/ ]Here's one to start your browsing.[/url]
Edit: in answer to Molgrip's question, it's a petrol car with a cat so almost no NOx
Well, Edukator - why sensationalise content you have zero evidence for?
He's correct. the question you asked didn't make any sense.
The risk of getting any disease is based on lots of different factors. With respiratory disease, one of those factors is NOX. If you increase NOX, you increase the chance of someone getting the disease (just as smoking increases the chance of you getting lung/throat cancer etc).