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This is fun. Actual evidence. Who'd a thunk it.
Lots of people haven’t bothered renewing passports as they don’t intend to travel any time soon and its £80 to renew – why would you?
It's an easy way to prove your are eligible to work in the UK. Most large organisations do ID checks as part of recruitment.
To vote in labour CLP matters it's not unknown for three forms of ID to be needed, membership card, photo ID and proof of address (to confirm you live in the constituency)
However it's overkill for the UK as we don't generally have a requirement to carry ID and doing any fraud at scale is difficult I imagine.
The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key and with a lot of people essentially relying on "Facebook news" conspiracy theories can spread quickly
Any legislation will have to deal with the ID less, I imagine some of them don't vote now anyway and are not even on the electoral roll
When I voted last week I did so on a whim - as I was passing the Polling station, I had no ID, since Google/Apple pay has become a thing I rarely carry my wallet with ID.
It is important to make voting simple, but it should still carry some weight and formality, I still don’t see why asking for ID is not a good idea. I suppose I don’t have a problem with having ID either, but do those 11m people want to vote ?
The weight & formality is your name & address, what more do you need?
It is important to make voting simple,
Nothing is more simple than not needing any ID and just being able to turn up.
Given voter fraud is pretty much non existent, the current system works very well.
I imagine some of them don’t vote now anyway
And how to we encourage them to vote? I know, wrap up voting in more red tape… that’ll get them engaged. That a new system disenfranchises people who already feel that they are the left behind and that there is no point voting isn’t a mark in its favour, in my opinion.
Unless a form of ID that is free to procure is provided then this also feels a bit poll taxy to me. As others have said there are people who would not easily find funds for a provisional driving license or a passport, and when the choice is to shell out or not to shell out and miss out voting in a safe seat or when the polls say one side are bound to win anyway then some people will choose to disenfranchise themselves rather in order to pay the bills.
And how to we encourage them to vote? I know, wrap up voting in more red tape… that’ll get them engaged. That a new system disenfranchises people who already feel that they are the left behind and that there is no point voting isn’t a mark in its favour, in my opinion.
They aren't voting when we have the most accessible system.....
It could be argued that access isn't the issue, it's persuading people that they can have confidence in the system, or argued that there needs to be compulsion or a carrot or anything
The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key and with a lot of people essentially relying on “Facebook news” conspiracy theories can spread quickly
@big_n_daft - this is a good point but is there evidence that this actually increased voter confidence because (1) this is not the only place I've seen it suggested this disproportionately suppresses voters who might not be inclined to support the tories (2) is about trying to introduce a reason for ID cards (and a big data economy) to go with them by the back door...
Whereas (1) asking for a DOB when you go to vote would make it considerably harder to personate (2) might make it more obvious to election officials if someone was not who they said. Alternatively expecting people to present their poling card as a primary source of identification would seem to be better than just say name and address (but clearly there needs to be a fall back for people who have not received / lost their polling card).
So my question, which I intended to ask for every govt policy for the next 5 years - "is this the time? surely the priority is the pandemic and rebuilding not tinkering with constitutions/voting rights?"
The thin end of the wedge isn't quite so thin any more.
This thread could be summarised with these (slightly confusing if you ask me) graphs from the FT:
See also changing mayoral election rules.
this is a good point but is there evidence that this actually increased voter confidence because (1) this is not the only place I’ve seen it suggested this disproportionately suppresses voters who might not be inclined to support the tories (2) is about trying to introduce a reason for ID cards (and a big data economy) to go with them by the back door…
ID cards in UK terms don't have overwhelming support so I don't see it happening. They are too "papers please" as Blair found out. I think there are ways of increasing confidence, but the challenge is that in our polarized politics it will be seen as too little or too much.
I think there are ways of increasing confidence
A good way would to be just honest about there being no problem with voter fraud, instead of allowing the lie to linger and grow. God forbid we should have a political class who could be honest and inform the populace with actual truthful information.
ID cards in UK terms don’t have overwhelming support so I don’t see it happening.
I've got an ID card, recently renewed for 0e. It's not obligatory, and there are many alternatives I could present to vote including a hunting permit. In places with less than a 1000 inhabitants you need no papers whatsoever to vote.
As with many things the idea that having to own and carry ID card in France is a mediatic invention, propaganda even. Yes it's useful but no you aren't obliged to have one and obviously not obliged to present one if the police ask for one. It's easier than hanging around or possibly being taken to the station while they confirm who you are though.
It really is one of those "what's not to like?" things that if people were better informed they'd probably like the idea. Everything to gain, nothing to lose.
The point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key and with a lot of people essentially relying on “Facebook news” conspiracy theories can spread quickly
Why is it so hard to spread facts with the same success?
big_n_daft
Free MemberThe point of the report is the lack of ID checks reduces voter confidence, there is a point there as confidence in the system is key
So we can counter that in one of two ways.
1) Facts or
2) Mandatory ID which makes voting more complex, adds costs, and realistically requires a new and completely free national ID method to be made available to everyone over 16. Or alternatively mandatory ID without any universal free ID method, which will disenfranchise millions of people
Maybe it's just me but I don't think letting facebook conspiracy theories and fact-free nonsense dictate national policy, create enormous costs in a country basically having 2 recessions at the same time, and most likely discouraging some people from voting, is the best idea.
A good way would to be just honest about there being no problem with voter fraud, instead of allowing the lie to linger and grow. God forbid we should have a political class who could be honest and inform the populace with actual truthful information.
We apparently have no problem with in person voter fraud but that may or not be because we don't actually check if it's happening. With the general low turnouts of people eligible to vote and easy access to the electoral roll, it's currently possible to vote multiple times at different polling stations using a selection of names. You'd only risk being caught if the person had already voted. I personally don't think it is a problem as postal vote fraud is much easier on a significant scale.
The last general election had a turnout of 67%, so picking random names of the electoral role, there would be a 67% chance of each voter fraud being detected. If that was happening it would be detected and reported.
That kind of statement is just part of the misinformation propaganda being used to disenfranchise and strip away voting rights.
Is there any other crime that gets a bill put forward just on the basis that it might exist, you never know, and anyway some people are worried in case it does?
Is there any other crime that gets a bill put forward just on the basis that it might exist, you never know, and anyway some people are worried in case it does?
Not in a functioning, rational democracy
The few cases of alleged voter fraud that I can remember being in the news were all related to postal votes, so having a photo ID would be useless.
Does one of BoJo's mates own an ID card making company?
If they do not now, I would put money on them doing so before the contract is awarded.
Sadly, some of the better/best tech for cryptographically secure IDs is owned by companies like Gemalto, which are now part of Thales, who are French. So if a contract does appear, does go to one of his mates and (crucially) does _not_ use a decent source of crypto from a reputable supplier (t.ex Gemalto), it will be next to useless and very open to duplication and/or fraud.
Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think letting facebook conspiracy theories and fact-free nonsense dictate national policy, create enormous costs in a country basically having 2 recessions at the same time, and most likely discouraging some people from voting, is the best idea.
So if you genuinely believe this isn't being brought forward because it will in some way advantage the current government, then effectively the government's legislative priorities are being dictated by Sue on Facebook who tells all her friend to take their own pens into the ballot box because you can't trust the ones already there.
OK, fair point – it should be easy. But its equally important to vote for most people. Is getting ID that hard ?
This was impossible for my Dad when ill in a care home as others have mentioned. He would have lost his vote on leaving. He would have voted Tory though. But still it's a disgrace that it is on any kind of priority list.
Why is it so hard to spread facts with the same success?
Maybe it’s just me but I don’t think letting facebook conspiracy theories and fact-free nonsense dictate national policy, create enormous costs in a country basically having 2 recessions at the same time, and most likely discouraging some people from voting, is the best idea.
Plenty of people on the remain side of Brexit are wondering why what they saw as a clear cut facts based discussion was lost....
The issue is really how do we enable people to cut though the crap on Facebook
Another measure - "Britons living abroad for more than 15 years to be given right to vote"
Overseas votes
This group is likely to be older and more likely to vote Conservative
I thought the gammony types thought the concept of ID cards was a bit foreign?
It is important to make voting simple, but it should still carry some weight and formality, I still don’t see why asking for ID is not a good idea.
Because it's not necessary, and may disenfranchise some people.
This has kicked off on the local "Spotted" FB group.
Lots of people saying "I don't have a problem with having to gave an ID card, I already have etc"
A couple of us saying "This isn't about compulsory ID cards, this is about stopping people voting for not having ID they don't need to have "
IMHO I think trying to dress it up as anything more than Voter Suppression is laughable really.
Voter fraud is almost unheard of, and why wouldn't it be? Even a close contest in politics usually comes down to a few hundred votes, not 2 or 3, if you really wanted to use fraud to affect a result you'd have to do it on such a scale it would be very difficult not to be caught, frankly it's fair easier to use the likes of Cambridge Analytica and call it legal.
If this passes, and well, unless some Tory backbenchers grown a spine, it will, who's affected most? The young and the poor. It will also affect working people, I voted along with millions of others last week. When I arrived at the polling station there was a HUGE queue, or rather a reasonable queue that looked huge because of SD, lots of people turned away with a 'sod that' look about them. ID checks take time, slow the process, make the queues longer.
I mean, hellfire Voter ID was a Donald Trump key policy, that alone should make it a 'bad idea' by default unless proved otherwise.
Brexit/Brexiters and Trumpism have a lot off crossover and will be influential for a long time to come.
recommendation: everyone must have photo id to vote, STW up in arms at the injustice....
recommendation: everyone must have new smart phone app to track location and all personal interactions, potentially resulting in Stay at Home order, STW laps it up and accuses anyone not onboard of being a tax dodging drug dealer.
i would say you cant make this stuff up..... oh.
Another measure – “Britons living abroad for more than 15 years to be given right to vote”
Overseas votesThis group is likely to be older and more likely to vote Conservative
Quite. They also won't have direct experience of how sh*t things have really got here.
recommendation: everyone must have photo id to vote, STW up in arms at the injustice….
recommendation: everyone must have new smart phone app to track location and all personal interactions, potentially resulting in Stay at Home order, STW laps it up and accuses anyone not onboard of being a tax dodging drug dealer.i would say you cant make this stuff up….. oh.
You've totally missed the point. This proposal isn't about introducing ID cards to vote.
i would say you cant make this stuff up
except...
...you just did 😉
Also, your strawman may respond:
Then why conflate (involuntary) social injustice - with (voluntary) social media/sports apps?
“Britons living abroad for more than 15 years to be given right to vote”
I'm interested how that will work. Will there be regional contituencies (with 11 MPs representing French people living in different parts of the World) for overseas voters like the French system or will you be assigned to where you left from? Depending on which of those is the case I'll be voting Green or Plaid Cymru.
potentially resulting in Stay at Home order
Ha ha! Show me anyone in the UK who's ever had, or even at risk of having, even a slap on the wrist, never mind a "stay at home order" for not having or using any app. That "potentially" is doing a lot of work in that bullshit statement, isn't it.
big_n_daft
Free MemberPlenty of people on the remain side of Brexit are wondering why what they saw as a clear cut facts based discussion was lost…
Almost like having the facts denied by people in positions of power and responsibility caused a problem, isn't it. But that's not what we're talking about. If the idea was really to deal with "concerns" then there would be no reliable sources talking about anything except that voter fraud isn't an option and voter ID is a stupid idea. FB etc could still be pouring out misinformation and lies but it's the "legitimate" sources that give those strength.
Except my 91 year old mum who lives in a care home so has no car and hence driving licence. Her passport renewal was turned down (presumably because she was born in India) although she’s had a passport since she was 18
Being born abroad this sort of thing genuinely frightens me. As it is I have to keep my passport up to date to work despite having lived in the U.K. from 6 weeks old and the more the Conservatives build in barriers for non-problems the more likely it is that I and others will get caught in the consequences.
The spokesperson on Newsnight last night was terrible, I assume she was a Govt lackey.
Emily Maitlis said that the risk of voter fraud was akin to being hit by lightning 3 times. The reaction was typically ignorant. and she was really struggling to smile and stay civil when Maitlis was destroying her argument. It would be quite amusing if this wasn't such a serious power grab.
Being born abroad this sort of thing genuinely frightens me. As it is I have to keep my passport up to date to work despite having lived in the U.K. from 6 weeks old and the more the Conservatives build in barriers for non-problems the more likely it is that I and others will get caught in the consequences.
Pretty much identical circumstances for me. Last year I moved to another Civil Service department. My passport lapsed in between showing it at the interview and showing it again when I started the job, so had to find and produce other ID.
Despite having been in the Civil Service 17 years, and produced documents confirming my right to work here several times when I've changed jobs and departments, I still had to produce photo ID document(s) I don't practically need to have, or jump through hoops with other docs.
It's similar with setting up new bank accounts as well.
If we are moving towards having to produce photo ID to access work or services, the government needs to be providing it for free.
At this point, I'd like to ask, once again, why having a single national ID would be so bad?
If it was made available to anyone with the right to live and work in the UK, for free (or as part of that process if you were applying), would it not make a lot of things easier?
At this point, I’d like to ask, once again, why having a single national ID would be so bad?
You could do no worse than look to what our current PM once said of them
f I am ever asked, on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman, then I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded I produce it.”
I hope the cards are as solid as ours then. My last one survived 15 years of abuse and if forced to eat it I reckon it would have taken days rather than hours.
I worked in Sweden in the 1990s, your personnummer was necessary for everything including renting a video so was completely accepted.
The UK is different, we've had propaganda about how we're better than foreigners because we don't have to produce ID at least since I was a child in the 60s/70s. Despite needing photo ID for flights or buying alcohol if you look young.
And now we can see how hard it's been made for EU nationals to get ID showing their right to remain - does anyone seriously think that a UK ID card will be better implemented? Any gaps in your employment record, proof of banking, proof of housing, proof of nationality will cause a rejection.