[Closed] Victim blaming government video

[i]So the message is that when you get overtaken by a truck before it turns left you should hang back?[/i]

Good message.

No good been dead right...

So the message is that when you get overtaken by a truck before it turns left you should hang back?

Well I would.

So the message is that when you get overtaken by a truck before it turns left you should hang back?

Well yes, but how exactly are you supposed to do that, ESP?

I mean what this video is actually showing is:
a) a driver breaking the HC and driving dangerously
b) a truck design which is unsafe for the roads and would be banned by HSE if they actually regulated such things in the same way they regulate other workplaces

I agree with BR, but they could at least film a situation where the cyclist undertakes the truck at some lights where you could at least construe the cyclist being at fault, not just being left hooked.

'Hang Back' is the offending phrase - implies the opposite of what's happening in the clip. I suppose 'get the **** out of there by any means if some idiot trucker left hooks you' wouldn't fit, though.

But the tone of the whole thing - hilarious, innit? That must have been a fun creative meeting. Look at the things going splat! 🙄

Standard left-hook for those of us who cycle every day. Can't believe that they point of the video is to warn cyclists of riding up the inside of lorries when the lorry overtakes and cuts the cyclist up.

Rubbish video, it's really not clear what is saying and it appears to blame the cyclist for being overtaken.

After the DfT got a load of stick on Twitter from British Cycling, Cycling UK, Chris Boardman, the general public and even West Midlands police (something along the lines of "the only thing we'd use this for is showing HGV drivers what NOT to do") they released a video aimed at drivers.

But unlike this one, it's not a slick, professional looking video, it's someone driving around the roads around the DfT building in central London while the social media intern films from the back seat, then they've added some "don't run people over" tips over the footage. No dramatic music, no voiceover. Almost as if it was cobbled together in 30 minutes as a response to the sh%tstorm on Twitter!

http://beyondthekerb.org.uk/news/think-campaign-releases-new-film-to-deluge-of-critical-feedback/

Well crafted advert but yeah- doesn't make the distinction between putting yourself in harms' way and being a victim of dangerous driving, and it should.

Obviously it's better to react than to get run over. But there's 2 messages here and the other one is what non-cyclists take away. This says to truck drivers it's cyclists' job to stay out of their way.

I think you chaps should go back and watch the clip in[b] slow-motion - from 26secs.[/b]
It isn't a cyclist being left hooked - it's a cyclist undertaking a lorry before a junction. The lorry is in the middle as it's a one-way street.
A pretty bloody rare scenario in my experience, but maybe quite common in that there London where cyclists go faster than the traffic most of the time?
It is a crap video though - someone was having too much fun with their destruction clips production to show clearly what was happening.

The way to avoid being dead is to react defensively. It's not that tricky a concept.

DezB - Member

I think you chaps should go back and watch the clip in slow-motion - from 26secs.

I think if you have to watch it in slow motion it's failed. What counts is what people take away from it

I think you chaps should go back and watch the clip in slow-motion - from 26secs.

Fair comment but if thats whats needed to get the message across, the video has failed.

[i]it's failed[/i] =
[i]It is a crap video though - someone was having too much fun with their destruction clips production to show clearly what was happening.[/i]

Of course it's failed! You can only tell at that 27 second instant that the bike is going faster than the lorry. How it got released, I'll never know, it's utterly moronic.

looks like a simple enough message to me

it's not aimed at us remember... we're all pretty savvy
it's an educational video so it's aimed I assume, at kids and new riders

the message being watch out if riding up the left of traffic and be aware of vehicles signalling left

if you disengage your cynical, battle weary cyclist for a moment it looks pretty informative
most people on bikes aren't hyper analytical forumites

Dez sez:

It isn't a cyclist being left hooked - it's a cyclist undertaking a lorry before a junction. The lorry is in the middle as it's a one-way street.

But Bez sez:

First the rider is shown seemingly passing the lorry to its nearside. (Note that the lorry driver is not indicating to turn left, and is driving on the wrong side of the carriageway: the placement of the on-road “20” signage indicates that this is a two-way road. Edit: it is, it’s Monier Road in East London.)

Who's right? There's only one way to find out...
[img] [/img]

And the second clip of the lorry actually turning left looks much more like a classic left hook than a rider diving into a gap between lorry and kerb.

Its a stupid video, but its pretty clear the bike is going faster and undertaking the lorry.

[i]First the rider is shown seemingly passing the lorry to its nearside.[/i]

Of course - so THEN THE BLOODY LORRY CAN'T SEE HIM!

[i]lorry driver is not indicating to turn left[/i]

Cos normally everyone indicates!

[quote=slackboy ]Its a stupid video, but its pretty clear the bike is going faster and undertaking the lorry.

In which case, how come the cyclist is further back compared to the lorry in the second clip (where the lorry is just starting to turn) than it is in the first?

It has also already been pointed out, but this is a two way road, hence the only reason for the lorry being in that position on the road is to overtake
https://goo.gl/maps/eGRxzraK8ev

The point is that this looks nothing at all like the scenario it is purportedly trying to prevent and everything like a classic left hook. The only possible way for it to not look like that is if you do forensic analysis of the video to work out that the cyclist is going faster than the truck (there is at the best conflicting evidence for that) - but only us lot are going to do that, for everybody else all the available information is of a classic left hook.

All they'd have to do to demonstrate the scenario they want, is to show it more from the POV of the rider approaching the lorry at the back of a slow-moving queue of traffic and actually going for the filter at the moment the lorry sticks its indicators on. Perhaps with a wing mirror shot showing that the driver can't see you at that point.

Less time for cartoons though, sadly.

Jesus wept. It's a good job they didn't spend a shit load of taxpayers money before getting someone who doesn't have shit for brains to review their 'concept'. 🙄

[i]for everybody else all the available information is of a classic left hook.[/i]

Which, if the lorry is indicating, and you have time, you hit the brakes.
Unless you want to die. In either case, you don't need a crappy video to tell you how to get squished by a truck, or not get squished by a truck.

Bloody embarrassing all round for the THINK! campaign, which appears not not do that at all.

looks like a one way street in this scene. I imagine they shot the undertake and crash on different streets at different times.

[img] [/img]

[quote=slackboy ]looks like a one way street in this scene. I imagine they shot the undertake and crash on different streets at different times.

How so? Because that is a two way street. And no, it's clearly all shot on the same bit of street.

In either case, you don't need a crappy video to tell you how to get squished by a truck, or not get squished by a truck.

again Dez...

WE don't need a crappy video, but there were a few deaths recently in the city from exactly this scenario..

so SOMEONE needs to be taught... you lot are seriously overthinking this IMO

it's not aimed at veteran commuters as far as I can see

The position of the 20mph marking shows it to be 2-way for those who don't know where it is. My original reaction (which is the only one that really matters) was that this was a lorry in an overtaking position, perhaps starting to slow down as it approached the left turn, allowing the rider to move further up the inside.

but there were a few deaths recently in the city from exactly this scenario..

Do we know this for sure? I haven't seen any discussion on whether it was undertaking while a vehicle was indicating, or whether it was the classic left hook.

[quote=yunki ]WE don't need a crappy video, but there were a few deaths recently in the city from exactly this scenario..
so SOMEONE needs to be taught... you lot are seriously overthinking this IMO
it's not aimed at veteran commuters as far as I can see

In which case they should make a video showing the sort of scenario where the cyclist does something wrong, not one showing a classic left hook. In this instance it's the driver who needs to be taught.

You don't have to take my word for it:
https://twitter.com/Trafficwmp/status/780328106741665792

Someone has done a remix, without the "fun" crap. All becomes clear (as a shite filled puddle of shite)

Well, that's the furthest I've seen any vehicle drive from the nearside (the one on the left) kerb without having good reason. Urban traffic generally hugs the kerb to stop cycists getting past.

It seems worse from the remix. Assuming the lorry overtakes the cyclist, then slows down to turn left then surely it is the lorry driver who needs to exercise a duty of care? It's not even as if the cyclist is filtering which I think (assume) is the normal cause of these incidents.

The whole thing just seems to say, if a vehicle wants to turn left you (as a cyclist) should slow down and let them, they don't have to hang back and wait.

Classic victim blaming, but then it is the DfT...

Its not victim blaming - its advice on how to try and avoid being a victim.

The highway code has some basic tenets for all road users to help stop us coming into conflict. One is we drive on the left. Another is we pass on the right.

If you find yourself on the left of any vehicle (a truck is a worst example but its still [i]any[/i] vehicle) you're in a bad place and you want to take action to get out of that position. You're in just as much danger whether you've positioned yourself there through your own bad choices or because the driver has put you there by their own ill-judgement - the blame of the situation is irrelevant as to whether you recognise that its danger and get yourself out of it.

Live to phone the 0800 number on the back of the truck.

[b]Northwind - Member[/b]
DezB - Member
I think you chaps should go back and watch the clip in slow-motion - from 26secs.

[b]I think if you have to watch it in slow motion it's failed. What counts is what people take away from it

150% agree with Northwind on this

not sure it is victim blaming just a pretty crap video and pretty crap message combined to do a mega crap job

[quote=maccruiskeen ]Live to phone the 0800 number on the back of the truck.

What if you don't ever see the 0800 number on the back of the truck before it turns left into you?

Yes, it is victim blaming when the advice is to the VICTIM on what action to take to avoid being hit by a driver breaking the HC and the law.

f you find yourself on the left of any vehicle (a truck is a worst example but its still any vehicle) you're in a bad place and you want to take action to get out of that position.

I find myself on the left of a vehicle hundreds of times every ride. What are you suggesting I do to avoid that?

right..

i'm gonna say my last bit on this, cos there's some pretty entrenched positions here and this thread is probably gonna turn in to a dick fest

the fact is that there are drivers out there who were trained in less enlightened times and they are a danger to cyclists..
i like to think that alongside videos like this, more emphasis during driver training is being placed on increased driver vigilance
in a generation or so, this sort of poor driving could be eliminated from our roads

in the meantime, it's important to educate new cyclists that the danger exists.. too many new cyclists imagine that cycling enables them to scoot up the inside of vehicles without a care in the world.. we all see it every day

I would happily use this video to illustrate the dangers of that mindset to my children

useful video being minutely dissected and criticised on a renowned pedantry forum by people who already know better 🙄

Vehicles overtake me daily on the left, just as aracer says. It is not an inherently unsafe position, unless the overtaking vehicle decides to make a move that puts me in danger.

If this occurs then it is the vehicle driver that is at fault, not me. I am the (theoretical) victim, yet this video and some posters are putting the blame on me - ergo "victim blaming".

them to scoot up the inside of vehicles without a care in the world..

Except that isn't what happens in the video. Fair enough if it was slow moving traffic, or the lorry was indicating and it was obvious the cyclist was carrying out an unsafe undertake. The video didn't show this.

so what!!!?

the message is clear... be aware of vehicles on your right

The message is right, the video is poor. it APPEARS to show a left hook but it isnt, but the fact that is APPEARS to show a left hook until you watch it 2 or 3 times is a major booboo.

so what!!!?

the message is clear... be aware of vehicles on your right

The message to you may be, to me it is - "It's your fault if you get caught in this situation". It carries on reinforcing the vehicular hierarchy we have on the roads that allows the injustices we say daily.

[quote=yunki ]I would happily use this video to illustrate the dangers of that mindset to my children

useful video being minutely dissected and criticised on a renowned pedantry forum by people who already know better

...and the West Midlands Police, who like me would only use this video to educate drivers, not cyclists
https://twitter.com/Trafficwmp/status/780328106741665792
/p>

If you want to educate your children about the dangers of scooting up the left hand side of trucks, I suggest you find a video showing that rather than one showing the trucker doing a left hook.

[quote=yunki ]so what!!!?
the message is clear... be aware of vehicles on your right

I am aware of them (every one of the hundreds), the question is what am I supposed to do about it?

I wonder how many deaths have resulted from this scenario. I wonder how many have resulted from trucks pulling up to stop lines at traffic lights and crushing cyclists who were already there or who had legitimately filtered.
The fact it is being debated in the way it is being debated is not good.

Victim blaming - not sure.

Crap vid - yes.

However alongside lorries is NEVER a good place to be regardless of where it is or what you're riding/driving.