[Closed] Vegetarianist nonsense

it's getting a lot better these days though, but yeah still not great.

Often people seem to think that having a few little bits of ham or bacon in something is fine, and will even say 'no that's not meat'.

The funniest part is when they make pinching gesture with their finger and thumb and say 'it's only a little bit'.

TIp for vegans in France: Baguette crisp sandwiches. I survived nearly 4 weeks on these when I was young and never got bored of them, and still eat them today when I'm over there. Obviously the non-vegans I'm with think I'm mental but there's just something about the combination of crisps and baguettes that make them ridiculously moreish.

There's a curry place on the Perth Road in Dundee where the waiter refers to me and my girlfriends as "vegetables"

OP trolling or being obtuse for another reason? Just so you know, cheesy, your shockingly terrible 'counter-argument' in no way discounts the equally terrible 'argument' you attempt to counter. Really bad - you should be very ashamed.

Ashamed, me? Certainly not. I was pointing out the lunacy of the arguemnt from both sides by quoting something that someone has offered up as 'fact' and countering it with equally silly drivel. It was intended to start a lively light hearted debate, which it did, but now it's all gone a bit serious!

I really don't mind what people eat and whether it's on moral grounds or not. What is stupid is when people start saying stupid things like 'don't eat meat and you'll save 100 animals', which is clearly nonsense and I think everyone agrees on this.

I'm don't consider myself to be part of any food based group. Sometimes I eat meat, sometimes I don't. I'd say that probably 60% + of all my meals are meat free.

piemonster - Member
There's a curry place on the Perth Road in Dundee where the waiter refers to me and my girlfriends as "vegetables"

I remember dining in the finest restaurant in Edzell (Not much of a claim!) and the waitress offered us some rather tasty spinach to go with our meal.

"Would you like some, er......erm.....um.....some green stuff?"

But animals CAN turn grass into protein. We can't do that. I've heard the statistic that you get 7x more calories if you simply eat the grain than if you turn it into meat - but we can't live on just grain. Yields per acre for legumes are probably a lot lower than wheat, I'd imagine, and it may be more intensive to grow and harvest. Also, how much land is actually suitable for beans? We can't even grow lentils in this country commercially, can we? Not sure.

I'm just trying to look behind the over-used quotes, since I am sure they don't tell the whole story.

I still don't see where you're coming from. That eating meat is a more inefficient use of land must be true, or the laws of thermodynamics are wrong! All sorts of crops could be grown on land currently dedicated to meat production (either for grazing or producing animal feed).

If animals are raised solely on land unsuitable for any other agriculture then that's a different story, but even hill sheep have their grazing supplemented with bought-in feed I think.

So is the argument not to totally get rid of animal farming, just reduce it somewhat?

From an environmental perspective, yes, but a lot of people don't eat met because they think it's wrong to raise and kill animals in order to eat them.

If you don't object to eating dead animals, then I think it's important to make best use of them - I do try to eat different cuts such as shin and neck, as well as offal - faggots and liver are particular favourites.

France is great for veggies, had a long discussion with a chef and waiter about the vegtableness of prawns and snails....

Well ransos, not all land is equal, as you say. With a bit of thought we could maximise meat production on land that's not suitable for the crops we need to replace meat.

I always thought it silly that American settlers replaced buffalo herds with cattle ones, when buffalo are far better adapted to the environment. If we could ranch them instead of beef, I'm sure it'd have a lot less environmental impact. And they are delicious.

Does anyone know how well legumes grow in the UK? I don't think we can produce lentils commercially can we? What kind of yield per hectare?

Well ransos, not all land is equal, as you say. With a bit of thought we could maximise meat production on land that's not suitable for the crops we need to replace meat.

I see. I agree with you, but if we only raised animals on land unsuitable for crops, my guess is we would all be eating very little meat.

Does anyone know how well legumes grow in the UK? I don't think we can produce lentils commercially can we? What kind of yield per hectare?

I see. I agree with you, but if we only raised animals on land unsuitable for crops, my guess is we would all be eating very little meat.

I think that's how the argument goes, yes 🙂

3.75 tonnes per hectare from beans on average, in the UK, incidentally. I assume that's raw weight, so enough protein for 60 people or thereabouts, assuming only one crop a year which I'm not sure about.

Given 70m people in the UK, we'd need about 1.2m hectares to meet our protein needs. We currently have about ten times that in animal pasture, according to wiki and my mental arithmetic.

The question is though how much of that pasture could be turned over to production of protein crops for humans?

This is also of interest:

In Wales, 80% of the farmland is designated "Less Favoured Area", and in Scotland the figure is 84%. "Less Favoured Area" means land that produces a lower agricultural yield, typically upland moors and hill farms, which explains the tendency to focus on sheep and sometimes dairy farming.

Oh yeah, just thought of something. Eating beans on their own is hard work. You need to eat them in a dish. So what's the impact of this? Those aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes etc etc must be coming from abroad, I'd have thought. They're certainly not available all year round.

Meat on the other hand may end up being eaten with fewer extra vegetables.. ?

Just wondering.

The question is though how much of that pasture could be turned over to production of protein crops for humans?

Pass. You could turn the question around and ask how much of our meat comes from UK land unsuitable for anything else. For a start, we can disregard all imports, as well as home-produced free range chicken, pork and beef, plus any lamb reared on improved pasture.

Oh yeah, just thought of something. Eating beans on their own is hard work. You need to eat them in a dish. So what's the impact of this? Those aubergines, tomatoes, courgettes etc etc must be coming from abroad, I'd have thought. They're certainly not available all year round.

Not always a bad thing - for example tomatoes grown outdoors in Spain probably have a lower carbon impact than those grown in UK Greenhouses.

You could turn the question around and ask how much of our meat comes from UK land unsuitable for anything else

You'd have to included sustainably caught fish, and also farmed fish in that.

You could turn the question around and ask how much of our meat comes from UK land unsuitable for anything else

Total agricultural land 18349
Common rough grazing 1200
Sole right rough grazing 3981
Permanent grassland 5877
Total croppable area 6258
Other land on agricultural holdings 1166

So you could read that as meaning that 5877 hectares are used for grazing that could be used for arable, although not all permanent grassland is necessarily suitable. (My land counts as grassland rather than rough grazing, but you'd have an interesting time trying to grow crops on it).

Specifically protein providing crops, rather than wheat or cabbages or whtaever.

How much fish can we sustainably catch or farm?

cans of carcinogen-contaminated horsemeat-filled products pulled out of supermarkets

you should go and work on an arable farm and see what ends up on and in your beloved veggies, some seriously nasty chemicals, in impressive quantities.

I also worked on an organic veg farm, and always chuckle when people say you don't need to wash organic carrots, ours were fertilised with the waste from an intensive chicken farm, including many rotting carcasses. Living the life of riley in the pile of chicken waste by the side of the field were hundreds of the biggest rats I've ever seen, which also just got scooped up into the spreader onto the carrots. Didn't eat too much of that crop!

How much fish can we sustainably catch or farm?

depends on how many windfarms we build. 🙂

you should go and work on an arable farm and see what ends up on and in your beloved veggies, some seriously nasty chemicals, in impressive quantities.

Really? I've seen the test results from a large arable farm and pesticide residues are miniscule.

How much fish can we sustainably catch or farm?

Depends how we catch or fish. Aquaponics can get some very high densities of crop / fish if done correctly.

Your mind is all over the place like a mad womans poo, isn't it?

It certainly is. Anywhere but on my work.

Your mind is all over the place like a mad womans poo, isn't it?

Rofl lol and various other things to express my amusement

Your mind is all over the place like a mad womans poo, isn't it?

😆

*Makes mental note to engineer that into a conversation at work next week

According to wikipedia, wheat has a higher protein content than soybeans. Yes, it is more complicated than that, but wheat is good stuff.

According to wikipedia...

Has about as much authority as 'My mate Dave says...'

Might be correct in this instance, but just for general future reference. 😉

According to wikipedia...
Has about as much authority as 'My mate Dave says...'

Not true. The vast majority of wikipedia is very accurate, and it's usually possible to check out the references on the well written pages. It only tends to be biography stuff which gets a bit rubbish - I can't see why anybody would write dodgy stuff about the protein content of wheat.

If you don't object to eating dead animals, then I think it's important to make best use of them - I do try to eat different cuts such as shin and neck, as well as offal - faggots and liver are particular favourites.

Horsemeat?

Personally I love offal, but I can understand why lots of people don't.

I wasn`t too bothered about the authority because simple % protein contents are misleading nutritionally anyway. My point is that wheat is a good protein source, particularly when combined with legumes, green leaves, and/or meat.

This fella seems to get by

http://scottjurek.com/

ACCOMPLISHMENTS

United States record for 24-hour distance on all surfaces (165.7 Miles/266.01 Kilometers)
Won the Spartathlon 152-mile (245km) race from Athens to Sparta, Greece three consecutive times (2006-2008)
Won the Hardrock Hundred Mile Endurance Run, and held the record time for one year until Kyle Skaggs set a new record in 2008
Won the Western States Endurance Run seven consecutive times (1999-2005), and held the record time (15:36:27 in 2004) until 2010
Won the Badwater Ultramarathon twice (2005, 2006), and held the course record for two years (2005)
Finished first three times (2002-2004) and second three times (2001, 2005, 2006) in the Miwok 100K Trail Race
Won the Leona Divide 50 Mile Run four times (2000, 2001, 2002, 2004)
Won the Diez Vista 50K Trail Run twice (2000, 2003)
Won the montrail Ultra Cup series twice (2000, 2003)
Selected as UltraRunning Magazine's North American Male Ultrarunner of the Year in 2003, 2004, 2005, and 2007
PERSONAL BESTS

100 Mile Trail: 15:36, Western States Endurance Run 2004
100K Road: 7:28, GNC 100K 2001
50 Mile Trail: 6:21, Ice Age 50 Mile 1999
50 Mile Road: 5:50, GNC 2001
50K Trail: 3:04, Bendistillery 50K 1999
26.2 Mile Road Marathon: 2:38, Austin Marathon 2006

Just caught up on this. Couple of replies,

I've learnt something though, as I'd never have considered the seperate tongs at the BBQ thing. So that will be noted for future reference.

That's really good, and appreciated. Personally, as a veggie, I really don't want my food covered in animal fat.

What I want to know us why is there no meat option at a vegetarian restaurant!

Because meat eaters aren't carnivores, they're omnivores.

Personally, I've no problem with balance. I'd welcome a veggie menu that said "meat option available on request" at the bottom.

I mean you go to any other restaurant then they cater for veggies!

Sadly, that's not always true. As a recent example, I was on a training course today where all week the main meal options were two beef dishes. I asked about veggie options and was told "chips or a jacket potato".

Here is a BIG figure from the USA:

Field corn (blah blah)

On a point of note here is the US corn thing is atypical and artificial. Farmers are encouraged to grow a disproportionately large amount of corn for economic reasons.