Being serious about bees for a sec (which I recognise probably isn't in the spirit of this thread), I have some vegan friends who won't eat honey (or bees for that matter) and some who do. Personally I do, because I've seen no evidence to suggest that bees suffer from bee-keeping. I've generally found that vegans come in two forms: very strict types who carry around a copy of the animal free shopper book wherever they go, and people like me who do what they can and don't torture themselves about any accidental or minor infringements. The honey issue tends to be a good barometer of which camp a vegan is in.
the structure is made of wax, chizelled from bee ears. then they spit honey into it.
Yum !
I'm sure there must also be a tiny minority of vegans that can't eat food pollinated by bees either, since that is much like farming and (ab)using bees. Maybe in America.
Honey is bee vomit???
😯
[i]However, if there's one thing I still can't stand, it's when the ill-informed idiots question the wisdom of bringing our kids up vegan. [/i]
Vegans can't have children. Only one of those sperms will achieve its purpose, the rest will starve and die....or be eaten, so by voluntarily attempting to fertilise eggs, you're murdering things.
Can't be bothered to read all the thread but has anyone suggested that if we don't eat meat then we will all start smelling awful, as all vegans/vegetablists do*
*well those that I know have personal hygiene issues (BO)
rusty90 - Member
You could see that as a sign of efficiency, rather than the other way round
😆
You could, if you didn't know what efficient meant.
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xherbivorex - MemberHas anyone mentioned bees and vegans yet or would that be a red herring?
do go on...
Sorry was out for lunch. It was in a similar thread on here awhile back,you know how STW likes to repeat everything ad nauseam no pun intended with the bee vomit.
I think the gist was that vegans wouldn't eat honey as it is an animal product and then some wag asked whether crops fertilised by bees should be treated the same as bees were exploited to produce them.It was messy but graham probably cleared it up.
Depends where you are. Round here cattle eat grass in the summer, silage in the winter. Sometimes supplemented with some beet or kale.Cows eat a lot more than grass.
Have we established yet whether vegans eat red herrings?
Bacon is a carcinogen - [url= http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/03March/Pages/Diet-high-in-processed-meat-threatens-health.aspx ]linky[/url].
If everyone stopped eating it, hundreds of animals' lives would be saved
😉
I think I've got a pretty good idea of what efficiency means in an agricultural context, e.g. output versus input, and on marginal land sheep farming is about as efficient as it gets. Unless someone comes up with a way to make spruce edible.You could, if you didn't know what efficient meant.
Interesting. BLT with Spruce Mayonnaise sounds good (no mayo for me please) 🙂
rusty90 - Member
Unless someone comes up with a way to make spruce edible.
That made me laugh outloud, which is unfortunate as I was eating at the time, quornburger down the nostrils - not pretty!
Also, big field opposite my house is full of sheep and they are eating beet and hay, must be soft southern sheep up here on their hols?
Nothing wrong with a bit of supplemental beet during bad weather at lambing time. And hay is made of grass you know.
Fortunately raining here at the moment, so the grass might actually start growing again and I can stop having to lug hay bales around every day.
I thought everyone knew that lamb is suitable for vegetarians. Sheep eat grass you eat them. It's just food processed into tasty grass (a mobile food factory). This same rule also applies to rabbits. That's my thinking and I have been a vegetarian for years. 🙂
It's often claimed that vegetarians are preachy and holier than thou. All I'm seeing here is defensive meat eaters. I've never understood why carnivores are so keen to tell veggies why they're wrong/ misguided/ hypocritical etc.
(I eat meat, btw).
Bit of a clumsy Troll Rantsos.
2/10
Must try harder.
😉
Where would I get my leather saddle from you insensitive count
Who are you calling an insensitive count! 😉
Works both ways.
We wind up one veggie in our group with bacon sarnies, because we know he used to love them before he made his choice, and loves the fake bacon stuff.
He publicly winds up the meat eaters in the group, even bragging about the smugness. Especially with the horsemeat nonsense at the moment.
I say eat what you like. Veggie, proper meat, mechanically reclaimed "meat" from random sources. Just don't try to sell your point of view or persuade people to change (unless you're a doctor and it's for medical reasons).
rusty90 - MemberInteresting. BLT with Spruce Mayonnaise sounds good (no mayo for me please)
Is that Bee, lettuce and tomato? So cruel!
I don't eat meat but freely admit to not being morally perfect... Get over it meat eaters.. 😀
Why when you go to a barbecue do all the bloody meat eater decided to try the vegeburgers or whatever so there is always none left for the vegetarians (having mostly brought it along themselves). They then have the cheek to start telling the veggies that they just be eating meat. No wonder they all look thin in the summer.
I sometimes have a vegeburger along with my steak burger and bacon... I call it an ultraburger. But if I'm having one of those I always bring my own vegeburgers too so as not to deprive you picky lot. Just as long as you don't expect me to use separate tongs, etc. That I [i]really[/i] can't stand. 🙂Why when you go to a barbecue do all the bloody meat eater decided to try the vegeburgers or whatever so there is always none left for the vegetarians (having mostly brought it along themselves).
... and why do vegetarians moan at the choice of food at a hog roast?
If you can eat it and it tastes good and doesn't make you ill then why would you not eat it?
I sense some are trying to goad this thread into a bit of a flame-off.
But all I'm reading is that both parties are generally saying "live and let live". "You eat meat, I do not. Everyone to their own", or vice a versa.
I'm totally indifferent on the subject. If you is a veggie, fair enough, its no issue here. If you eat meet, no issue there either.
🙂
Hmmmm ultraburger
bit of a flame-off.
mmm...flame grilled.
This is a great topic. I am all for live and let live, but in terms of moral respect vegetarians do not deserve any. Vegans do. I admire them, but vegetarians are just picking the convenient morals without logically standing by what they believe in.. ( unless you are veggy cos of taste, or price and actually couldn't give a monkeys about the cows)
But all I'm reading is that both parties are generally saying "live and let live".
Nope, several meat-eaters being dicks about vegetarians AFAICS. Some of these things might seem amusing but I imagine they get slightly less funny when you've heard them 20 billion times.
This is a great topic. I am all for live and let live, but in terms of moral respect vegetarians do not deserve any.
See?
Grum, you calling me a dick ? Selective quoting. I mentioned that I do respect vegans. They have a sound moral stance. Unless you can challenge my position with reason, which it appears you have sidelined in favour of insult? I won't return thefavour. Why not just discuss? I'm listening. I merely pointed out that I don't respect the moral position of vegetarians who state a moral case.
[i] but in terms of moral respect vegetarians do not deserve any[/i]
Go on then, I'm bored enough to hear you "flesh" this one out a bit*
* see what I did there?
Zilog: I really like separate tongs for veggies at a barby. I'm not fussed about veg food being contaminated by meat juice - I just don't like the way I usually see the meat go on and off with the same tongs 😯
Well I think we need to define the difference between vegetarians and vegans first yeah? Vegans will not have anything to do with animal products, to varying degrees. Eg no meat, leather, dairy, eggs etc. So essentially avoiding expolitations of animals in any way. As a confirmed murdering canirvore, I actually admire and respect this position. To be honest they have a point. I'm too much of a hell bound tosser to go along with them, my own pleasure trumps veganism as far as I am concerned and frankly I deserve little moral respectfor being a meat eater. I accept this, and comethe revolution I fully expect tobe vilified for it. (I might have to run ir fight for my lufe, but it wont be posxible to secure my liberty by the use of morals, unless the opponents are thick)
In the mean time, the moralising (I say this, because many veggies dont moralise, they just dont eat meat because they are squeamish or dont like it but are happy to put up with eggs, dairy, leather etc because really they dont give a shit and are hellbound like me) vegetarian argument that eating meat is bad, but eggs milk and leather are ok, just does not hold any water, as animals are killed with as much abandon to make eggs, leather and dairy as they are for steak. So mral argument =zero.
I suppose after 15 years of treehugging, I ought to also read upn on and consider the effect of milk, particularly cow's milk. ie methane and the how if everyone stopped eating cows overnight there would still be a demand for them as milk producers, and then you would have a lot of steers left over. So in the case of cows, the original post has some point as you'd need to stop the demand for making shoes, cheese and so on of out of them too. [edit: typed this while toys was tying the above post, he articulates it much better: I suppose I should re-examine the real effect of my meat free-existence given my ongoing use of and demand for dairy and leather)
In the meantime, my kids were both born 8lbs plus to a vegetarian mum, and raised omnivores. Daughter has made her own choices now (occasional pig-in-blanket related lapses), and son LOVES PIIIIIIG. 😆 I also find that cooking meat for your friends and children's friends also sidesteps much of the preachyness/jibes etc and yet somehow I still sleep at night.
FWIW Graham and xherbivore are still only the 29ers of the food world: for true eating nicheyness, my (then vegan) wife once knew a couple of fruitarian musclemountain bodybuilders, and fruitarian lady who somehow raised a baby in good health as a fruitarian. 😯 IIRC there was something published in medical/paediatric journals about her: ( if anyone is interested in looking it up this franklly bonkers but fortunately healthy parenting, it was in Leicestershire in the early to mid 90's and would have been overseen by paeds at Leicester Royal Infirmiary)
I see your point, it doesn't bother me with steaks/beef burgers though as the raw juices aren't going to hurt you. Wouldn't do it with chicken though! (although I always cook chicken in the over first!)Zilog: I really like separate tongs for veggies at a barby. I'm not fussed about veg food being contaminated by meat juice - I just don't like the way I usually see the meat go on and off with the same tongs
Why not just discuss?
OK, it's just crass and insulting to say vegetarians don't deserve 'any' moral respect. They are still causing less animals to be killed than people who don't eat meat. It's this nonsense argument that comes up regularly on here that says 'if you don't lead an ethically totally pure lifestyle, you have no right to ever criticise or care about anything'.
I would agree that the dairy industry involves fairly unpleasant treatment so holier than thou vegetarians who drink milk would be being somewhat hypocritical. Haven't seen any of them though - just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders (I repeat, I'm not vegetarian).
In the mean time, the moralising (I say this, because many veggies dont moralise, they just dont eat meat because they are squeamish or dont like it but are happy to put up with eggs, dairy, leather etc because really they dont give a shit and are hellbound like me) vegetarian argument that eating meat is bad, but eggs milk and leather are ok, just does not hold any water, as animals are killed with as much abandon to make eggs, leather and dairy as they are for steak.
You're just criticising an imaginary position though - how many people in your life have ever actually argued that eating meat is bad but eggs, and leather and dairy is ok? I've never heard anyone say that.
Some people find it a level of compromise that they find acceptable - I don't see why that would make you so judgmental about them though.
Julianwilson, there is no sustainable argument that meat/dairy is neccesary for growth and health. Umpteen million indians are veggy/vegan and they are thriving.
Meat eaters need to accept that the reason they eat meat is because they like it. End of.
Grum, why dont you read my posts and perhaps you will see that we actually agree?
Edit re imaginary position. Nope sorry had lots of moralising from veggies. Strangly enough the vegans I have come across tend to be more circumspect.
because they are wrong, just because they find it an "acceptable compromise" does not make them morally right. Maggie Thatcher found sinking the belgrano acceptable, because she resolved it personally does that remove her moral obligation?- I don't see why that would make you so judgmental about them though.
[i]just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders[/i]
Well, all I can say is that I hope you aren't including me there. I've really nothing against Vegetarians. I've learnt something though, as I'd never have considered the seperate tongs at the BBQ thing. So that will be noted for future reference.
Also, seeing as I'm here. Much respect to Julian for allowing their children to choose for themselves.
🙂
samuri - Member
However, if there's one thing I still can't stand, it's when the ill-informed idiots question the wisdom of bringing our kids up vegan.Vegans can't have children. Only one of those sperms will achieve its purpose, the rest will starve and die....or be eaten, so by voluntarily attempting to fertilise eggs, you're murdering things.
I knew something fishy going on with those vegetablists.
I don't know, but I have a friend who is very anal and boring about his veg. I don't take it too serious with him, because he achieved crazy things by being some kind yoga-mono-vegetable-raw eating shait.
I think it's a conspiracy to turn people into this kind to consume more vegetables which in turn are heavily modified by food industry with nasty chemical cocktails.
You don't have balls as a man if you get affected to the food you eat. No mercy from me to ship or cow. Give me machete , I maul them myself.
just loads of meat eaters with massive chips on their shoulders
Yeah Solo or me. I clearly pointed out I have no moral high ground, I don't see how I could be any more humble about it. I'm benused by the vitriol to be honest. It is only a discusiion.
As a herbivore/carnivore I have little problem with veggies I like to think as a "meat eater" I do you a service. Once you have milked said cow that had to have a calf to produce your milk I eat the bit you don't want, the calf. So you can continue your happy life the same goes to leather shoes etc etc what are you proposing we just dump the rest of the animal in landfill once you have your bit.
If we all went Veggy our country would change immeasurably no more lambs in the field/ hills cows grazing, pig herds etc etc we would have far more combinable crops and far less green areas.
