Has noone seen I am Legend then??
if and when the Covid vaccine becomes available it really is a No Brainer.
If one comes out whilst the disease still has the existing mortality rate, I would definitely be taking one. I have a flu shot every year, and CV is ~10 times as lethal.
If it stops me having to ****ing queue to do a bit of ****ing grocery shopping, I’ll drink a ****ing bottle of bleach.
I've possibly had a vaccine already - I'm in the stage 2/3 trial via Oxford university and thus have a 50-50 chance of having had a potential Covid vaccine or a Meningitis vaccine which they gave as the control.
Obviously this shows that I'm in favour of it... And for people who are too selfish to vaccinate themselves or their kids, what about those who are unable to do so (chemo patients and others who are neutropenic or otherwise immunosuppressed) and rely on herd immunity?
Now, I was always taught vaccines are 100% effective when administered properly.
You need a different teacher. Many vaccines are not 100% protective. Some are therapeutic and stoke up the already present immunity, some induce less serious infection than would otherwise be expected (e.g., malaria).
As for bacterial, the HiB vaccine has been spectacular in reducing carriage of a commensal bacteria that leads to meningitis.
As for bacterial, the HiB vaccine has been spectacular in reducing carriage of a commensal bacteria that leads to meningitis.
But it's not a vaccine if it works against Bacteria. At least, it wasn't. Terminology has changed. That's kinda my point...
Malaria doesn't have a vaccine. It has drugs, either prophylactic, or palliative.
There is no vaccine that works properly at the moment (there is a drug that even the WHO recommend isn't taken). And again, it's against something that isn't a virus, in that case a Plasmodium, so isn't a vaccine. In this case, it would be a long term prophylactic.
Like PrEP against HIV isn't a vaccine; it's just a drug that stops the virus reproducing. Same with Remdesivir against Ebola and CV19. Kinda like antitoxins
what about those who are unable to do so
Essential oils.
Only if they’re diluted down to about 1ppb.
I’ll be refusing a Covid vaccine
They’ll just inject you in your sleep if you do.
That’s what they do.
Not true. Chemtrails init.
Have warned my kids that I’ll be refusing a Covid vaccine and am prepared to go to prison for exercising my personal choice.
I hope that is not because you're worried about an inflammatory response, as that would be a tad hypocritical.....
Gah, cross-posted. Wasn't worth waiting for anyway!
Tallpaul
SubscriberYou don’t just ‘skip’ Phase I trials… Which vaccines/companies are you referring to?
Good point, my mistake. So the animal testing is being skipped for some candidates; CanSino did 2 weeks(?) of Phase I testing with 100 participants, and hadn’t released data before starting Phase II at the start of April. I think they have now released the Phase I data and they’re not saying there were any significant risk factors from the data.
So if and when the Covid vaccine becomes available it really is a No Brainer.
I think that about sums it up, no brainers tend to get their medical advice from Facebook or the pub rather than from the medical profession.
"But it’s not a vaccine if it works against Bacteria."
- what, like the vaccine against typhoid?
It is a vaccine if it stimulates your immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease. That's what the CDC say and I guess they should know.
I believe that we overvaccinate in this country, I have refused some even tho I had to sign a waiver at work and I will be standing in the queue for this vaccine the day it is released
Have warned my kids that I’ll be refusing a Covid vaccine and am prepared to go to prison for exercising my personal choice.
Yep, that's what we need to be spending tax revenues on - prisons full of David Icke disciples.
I think if a vaccine arrives whilst its still likely to be effective we should be given a vaccination passport which is needed to fly, use public transport or attend events with large numbers of people.
vaccine against typhoid
EDIT - oh, it's not worth it
But also due to weakening
Those articles don't mean the virus is weakening, there are lots of reasons that would explain it as the articles state - other external factors.
The reasons for this steep and continual decline in the deaths per day in the hospital of patients with COVID-19 are unknown and should be explored.
The Guardian this morning had an article reporting in shocked (shocked!) tones that 1 in 6 Brits reckon they wouldn’t take a coronavirus vaccine if/ when it’s developed, and a further 1 in 6 aren’t sure.
Frankly 4-5 out of 6 taking it would be a result. Anthony Fauci the director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases reckons that even if a successful vaccine were developed it wouldn't work in the USA because a third of the population would refuse it because they are anti-vaxers or think its Bill Gates' mind control serum
Have warned my kids that I’ll be refusing a Covid vaccine and am prepared to go to prison for exercising my personal choice.
Don't worry I'm sure a combination of aromatherapy and positive thinking will protect you just like it does against polio, measles, mumps and meningitis.
Have warned my kids that I’ll be refusing a Covid vaccine and am prepared to go to prison for exercising my personal choice.
I feel sorry for your children, having to be ashamed because their mother is a conspiracy theorist
I believe that we overvaccinate in this country
how so?
But then I’m the sort of saddo who gets upset when people say vaccine in reference to a bacterial infection.
Interesting
I've never come across a stricter definition of vaccine/vaccinate to mean only virus - or is it tighter than that - does it have to be a live virus? Is attenuation allowed or must it be a similar but naturally less virulent virus? Does it only refer to vaccinia?
What should we call viral particulate vaccines, bacterial ones,
I suppose we've got "toxoids" for, err toxoids
Its a conversation for another day really
flu vaccine is pushed hard on us at work despite not being terribly effective ( and this is not to stop us passing it on its to reduce sick leave), Hep Vaccines are pushed as well tho areas I work in will not come into contact with them and with halfway decent control measures we do not get infected anyway. I was pushed to get Rubella - again I am highly unlikely to come into contact with it or with pregnant women ( or no more so that the general population)
Its a cost / benefit analysis ( not financial cost) across populations and I am not sure we have that balance right with understated downsides and overstated upsides.
I personally also have some immune system damage and react badly to inoculations of any sort
interesting
It's what my tutor at uni taught me; it applied to live or inactive viral vacccines. No bacterial vaccines, and definitely no protoctista, as we used to call them
That was a parasitology degree.
The bacterial and protoctista preventative measures were antitoxins, innoculations or immunisations. Or just long term prophylatics. So, for instance, the Tentanus Vaccine isn't a vaccine, as you need a booster every 10 years, or after an injury. You don't need that with a proper vaccine.
but it's a niche subject, and niche terminology differentation. So there are more important things to argue about
Its a cost / benefit analysis ( not financial cost) across populations and I am not sure we have that balance right with understated downsides and overstated upsides.
I see your point. I would have thought there would be a body in place to look at the evidence, some one like NICE where the benefits and risks are weighed up.
Refusing the vaccine based on 'choice' and no other grounds? Not cool. I'd be distinctly unsure of a brand new vaccine, and not happy about taking it - but I would. Because that's what the world (literally) and our country needs us to do and I am not one of those people who doesn't bother to do stuff because 'it'll be ok someone else will do it'.
Well said molgrips.
Please note I said that I would have the corona virus inoculation without a second thought
It’s what my tutor at uni taught me; it applied to live or inactive viral vacccines
Your uni lecturer was a numpty lol
The bacterial and protoctista preventative measures were antitoxins, innoculations or immunisations
what do you use to immunise someone?
I believe that we overvaccinate in this country
yes we spend too much time preventing disease and death in this country
These two imply it’s getting better; could be due to all the most susceptible people dying already of course. But also due to weakening
Interesting. It has been puzzling me for a while how the USA case rate has gone through the roof but the death rate continues to trend downwards. I assumed it was because more people are being tested, but I'm not sure this is the case as there have been lots of complaints about testing not being good either. So maybe the weakening explains it.
It has been puzzling me for a while how the USA case rate has gone through the roof but the death rate continues to trend downwards
death rate isn't totally linked to infection rate. The people that are likely to die are probably staying indoors where as other people have been ignoring lock downs, rioting and protesting thus increasing infection rates. Death rates will also lag behind infection rates.
New cases have only been rising for the past week in USA states, no? Didn’t we have a full discussion about the expected lag between rising cases and rising deaths over in the other thread, months ago?
Edit: by bad, I hadn’t realised cases had been rising for weeks now.
Hmm… looking at individual states, there are lot of different patterns, deaths in Arizona (the first state I looked at) rising starkly, in many others the deaths are falling fast.
And for people who are too selfish to vaccinate themselves or their kids, what about those who are unable to do so (chemo patients and others who are neutropenic or otherwise immunosuppressed) and rely on herd immunity?
We will be lucky if these people actually make it long enough to see the vaccine develop.
There is a big responsibility for these deaths on Johnson ending shielding and any support for shielding.
And at the same time opening schools with the misinformation that children can't spread covid.
It's almost as if he's spotted a gap in the morgue and decided to Get It Done.
what do you use to immunise someone?
I'll just leave this here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunization
vaccination is an active form of immunization.
ie there are other forms of immunization
molgrips Subscriber
Refusing the vaccine based on ‘choice’ and no other grounds? Not cool. I’d be distinctly unsure of a brand new vaccine, and not happy about taking it – but I would. Because that’s what the world (literally) and our country needs us to do and I am not one of those people who doesn’t bother to do stuff because ‘it’ll be ok someone else will do it’.
Well said and pretty much how I feel!
This is a serious comment and not a flippant "natural selection" rant against anti vaxxers.
We have seen astonishing levels of poorly educated people particularly in the US whos views and understanding are driven by religion, far right and conspiracy theory nuts who all fail to see rhe reality of their current situation.
To some extent we have this in the UK and to a lesser extent Europe. You have to question the levels of education and intelligence that currently reside in significant parts of the US and the UK population? The very thing that allows Trump, Boris, Cummins to suceed may well be their downfall.
I dont care if large parts of the US or the Uk refuse a vaccine but it should reduce their access to schools, colleges, universities, restaurants, pubs, events, workplaces etc.
There is a concept in data protection that talks about vital interest and it sort of means that the rights of the individual can be over ruled if there is risk to life and iimb.
Now i like many would have conerns about a vaccine (i worked in Pharma for over 15 years) but the fact is it is less of a risk than covid destroying our world.
So to those who state "over my dead body" it probably will be or a relative who also "refused"
I do wonder when the brexit voting, toty voting, anti vax brigade will go "hang on, i am out of work, got covid, benefits reduced, no NHS, cant go to the pub" actually wake the **** up.
I’d just take the advice of my doctor, seeing as none of us really know what we are talking about. Weird idea I know.
This.
Have warned my kids that I’ll be refusing a Covid vaccine and am prepared to go to prison for exercising my personal choice.
1. Nobody's going to send you to prison, so no need to be melodramatic about it.
2. If you don't want it, no problem. But please have the decency to tell everyone you meet that you have refused and let them exercise their personal choice to not associate with you without you getting upset about it. That especially includes health workers, co-workers, supermarket staff, etc. If your co-workers aren't comfortable about it, please do the decent thing and find another job with people who accept your decision.
I heard tht if they change the frequency on the new 5G masts by 2 megahertz then everyone becomes automatically immune to Covid-19
That doesn't work for prime-numbered Covids - number 3, 7, 11, 13, 17, and 19. Covid-5 is a prime, but it's a multiple of 5 so 5G should work.
The US death and case rates are confusing because they are averaged over a massive area with (now) not a lot of connections. In the early days, Florida had a low case rate and NY a very high one. Rural Nebraska had basically nothing. Now the NY rate is dropping, Florida is exploding and Nebraska has a growing problem due to one meat packing plant.
It's like if we averaged all of Europe or all of China - it's not a valid way to model it. At the height of the Wuhan outbreak China had a low rate due to the other billion people in China.
Edited to add map of case distribution across the USA
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/us-map
Two dangerous ideas cropping up in this thread: virus weakening and immunity passports.
Both might turn out to be correct/to work but they also might not so putting any faith in them or basing public health decisions on them on current evidence is very risky.
In the spirit of correcting misinformation:
I’ll just leave this here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunizationvaccination is an active form of immunization.
ie there are other forms of immunization
That article is making the distinction between active and passive immunity.
Active: you get a shot, your body makes antibodies, you have some protection for the future.
Passive: you get an injection of antibodies to fight a currently active disease. This is how Covid plasma treatment works. It's a treatment given to sick people and the 'immunity' is not expected to last more than a few days (that's a guess, I don't actually know, but it's very short term).
The article your cited doesn't support your point at all! At any rate, regardless of what you were taught in the 1960s/70s/80s/90s, that's not how the word vaccine is commonly understood. Vaccines can immunise against bacteria and to argue otherwise is being obtuse.
1. Nobody’s going to send you to prison, so no need to be melodramatic about it.
It's almost as if the conflict and melodrama is somehow part of the attraction of being vocally anti-science. You can't be 'woke' if you don't disagree with the majority.
Two dangerous ideas cropping up in this thread
You missed the most dangerous idea, anti-vax 'over my dead body' nonsense.
A very effective vaccine that completely protects those who've had it whilst allowing those who refused it to get sick in large numbers. Now that would be delicious. It's unlikely, given the science of herd immunity and vaccine efficacy etc, but that would be a hell of an outcome of all of this.
The first people dead would be the people currently shielding, the chemotherapy patients and others with compromised immunity. But must be lovely wishing death on people.
There's a very nasty undercurrent to this thread now.
Steady on, I certainly wasn't wishing death on anyone, let alone those who are helpless. It would be ironical - Covid-19 wiping out anti-vaxxers (as a concept, not the people) and that would be an interesting outcome that would have lasting benefits. That's all.
