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given that suicide is an overwhelmingly male problem that is largely ignored as such
I had wondered when.
I had wondered when.
Well now you can stop wondering.....
Because suicide rates are suicide rates and sadly no cares about them very much unless they've been personally affected; they certainly don't factor in people's thinking when talking about 'gun violence'.
The question is why not. As opposed to casually dismissing it.
I would have thought it rather relevant if someone is talking about owning firearms for self defence to point out the increased risk to their health.
given that suicide is an overwhelmingly male problem
And I would take a guess that owning guns is overwhelmingly a male problem too. So suicide by using your gun is more likely a male option. Anyway,, back to the point...
geetee1972 - MemberBecause suicide rates are suicide rates and sadly no cares about them very much unless they've been personally affected; they certainly don't factor in people's thinking when talking about 'gun violence'.
Ah gotcha, I misunderstood what you meant- thought you were saying the argument itself was weak, but I see you meant that it lacks impact/effect because despite being a good argument, nobody cares.
And actually, you're totally right. If people aren't convinced by mass murders or "accidents" where kids shoot their siblings, then they're definitely not going to care about suicides. What a shitty state of affairs.
Northwind - MemberIf people aren't convinced by mass murders or "accidents" where kids shoot their siblings, then they're definitely not going to care about suicides. What a shitty state of affairs.
It's not that they aren't convinced of the tragedy of an accident or the lethality of mass shootings. In my opinion Americans' seem very capable of detaching patriotism from the debate and viewing it as separate regional issues. On forums with lots of Americans I've noticed a a detachment or apathy based on distance/percieved culture in a given state or city. So a mass shooting in Texas - what do you expect, it's Texas. Gang violence in Detroit, well that's a Detroit thing...and so on.
We tend to think of it as one country, but it's also a giant continent with 10% of the population density of the UK. A farmer in rural Oregon isn't going to relate to, or be worried by violence in inner city Detroit 2500 miles away. Not to say that they don't care but they are probably no more worried about it than people in the Scottish Highlands are worried about knife crime in inner city London. Do people in Paris worry about the heavily armed population in Switzerland?
I think U.S gun laws are absolutely insane, but if I moved there I would certainly own a gun.
I think U.S gun laws are absolutely insane, but if I moved there I would certainly own a gun.
And do what with it, most people don't have the stomach to actually use one - and in that time you froze you get shot. It takes months and months of training to desensitise soldiers enough to do it and even some of those will hesitate the first time it gets close and personal. Better to just avoid bad areas.
Shoot empty beer cans out of trees, obvs.
And do what with it,
have fun
and why the hell not?
Tom_W1987 - MemberAnd do what with it,
At a time (pre kids) I genuinely considered moving to British Columbia or Washington State. My wife was all for it too. My friend actually went, and now lives in BC. He has a rifle and a revolver. The rifle he uses for hunting, and to deter bears from stealing his pets (and children). He fishes in Alaska and that's the main reason for the revolver but it's also for home defense as they are many miles away from any kind of police force.
Were I to move, I'd want to live somewhere rural and I would enjoy hunting ( I've been on a few deer stalking days and would like to do more). The idea of hunting for my food really appeals to me.
With regard to home defence and killing other people - it works both ways. The country is awash with guns. The idea of being helpless and at the mercy of someone because they have a gun and I don't does not appeal to me. After the thread on here about the weapons people keep under their bed for home defence I don't think it's an unnatural or weird attidtude to have. It seems that plenty of people on STW keep some kind of bat or kosh close to hand to protect their loved ones from the tiny likelihood of a malevolent intruder. Sensible rational Americans buy guns motivated by the same concerns, however a cricket bat isn't much use against a glock.
Cougar - ModeratorShoot empty beer cans out of trees, obvs.
That too. Obvs
than people in the Scottish Highlands are worried about knife crime in inner city London.
As I recall, there were quite a few changes to gun laws made by a Tory government, despite plenty of pro-gun Tory MPs because of the weight of public opinion after a shooting in Scotland. Back in the day when people had to physically sign petitions, three quarters of million signed that one.
Anyway that's by-the-by now and I'm glad that weirdos who like guns find it more difficult to own one legally post-Dunblane. If it causes the likes of swivel-eyed right wing loons like Zulu who likes to "have fun" with guns to shit their pants - then there's an added bonus for you. I'd happily see them [all guns] banned outright, but I understand a compromise is needed with the loons, and presently, that compromise is heavily weighted in favour of the anti-gun lobby, and that's about fine with me.
I realise it's a cliché by now, but after Sandy Hook, if they didn't want to change something, anything, then that was the moment. And I don't believe that "good" people in Texas or New Mexico or Alabama don't give a shit about kids at school in Connecticut being massacred.
They (the pro gun-lobby) just like guns. They can wither on with whatever excuses they like, but we all know, they just like guns.
They're fetishised through history in American culture from the thought that if the local militia wasn't armed, they wouldn't have ever won independence right through to westerns on TV, where good guys (sheriffs, quiet strangers seeking justice, the "posse") always sorted out the bad guys with guns through to most cop/crime/spy/military drama produced nowadays, where again, bad guys are quickly dispatched by sharpshooting good guys who always take crims down with one perfect shot, while they're running, out of breath, stressed, sometimes even shot themselves - which seems unrealistic to me, but then I know nothing about how easy it is to take down bad guys with a gun - I can hardly even use a second fix nailer without messing it up. 🙂
deadlydarcy - MemberAs I recall, there were quite a few changes to gun laws made by a Tory government, despite plenty of pro-gun Tory MPs because of the weight of public opinion after a shooting in Scotland.
Point missed.
Anyway that's by-the-by now and I'm glad that weirdos who like guns
Why does liking guns make you a weirdo? Does liking cars or motor bikes or even push bikes make you a weirdo? (obviously liking push bikes makes you a weirdo).
They (the pro gun-lobby) just like guns. They can wither on with whatever excuses they like, but we all know, they just like guns.
They sure do like guns, but to say they "just like guns" is a gross oversimplification. Every time there's a thread here about gun violence or gun control I say the same thing - go and read an American forum. You will actually see well reasoned, well thought out and informed arguments from gun owners who aren't murderers or swivel eyed loons.
The problem with owning a gun for home/family (blah blah) protection is that it can't be kept in a safe place, it has to be kept easily to hand, such as under the bed or down the side of the sofa or under the baby's pillow or behind the cornflakes. That immediately makes it far more dangerous, if there was a sodding cleaver hidden in my Weetabix 'just in case' then I'd lose a finger every morning.
There was an example a couple of pages back where someone's (grenosteve?) cousin was tied up by an intruder. So she's out of the way and the baddie can nick her VCR or whatever, why would they return to harm her further? (Apart from all men being rapists) Instead, armed and emboldened with a gun in her hand she shot someone dead, someone who at that point had threatened her / tied her and was in the process of stealing something of minimal worth.
There's so many questions
Can I shoot a mugger in the states?
What if he's got a knife?
How about if I'm just feeling a bit scared and intimidated by some black or Hispanic people?
Do all gun-toting yanks shoot to kill?
Is it ok to shoot an escaping thief in the back (Tony Martin?)
Do all criminals deserve to be killed without trial?
Better to be robbed (or raped) or become a murderer?
Put it this way Jimjam, if a hardened Mexican criminal broke into your house with an AK47 - I doubt you'd have time to get a shot off. Youd be had, within seconds before you knew what was happening.
Ontop of that, for the weapon not to pose a greater statistical threat to your children and wife - through accidental discharge or you going wife beatery.... it would have to be locked in a cabinet... unloaded... unopenable unless both you and your wifes key are used.
If I was living somewhere I needed a gun, Id have steel armoured doors, laminated armoured windows, a panic room and an armoured car.
I'm saying that, having won a few competitions target shooting and having two snipers in the family.
The problem with owning a gun for home/family (blah blah) protection is that it can't be kept in a safe place, it has to be kept easily to hand, such as under the bed or down the side of the sofa or under the baby's pillow or behind the cornflakes. That immediately makes it far more dangerous, if there was a sodding cleaver hidden in my Weetabix 'just in case' then I'd lose a finger every morning.
The damage has already been done, with regards home defence.
Criminals are now expecting homeowners to have guns, so they get guns - and vice versa. Criminals are now expecting to be shot at, so their first idea is to take out the homeowner. But what's more likely is homeowners now expect every drunk/stoned/lost person late at night to be a criminal about to shoot them and fire first. Or every black man shouting or waving something in the air.
The problem has already created itself. In this country, if someone breaks into your house it's to steal your bikes or telly, and they don't want to kill you. So because you probably haven't got a gun, they probably won't. More bikes might get nicked, but fewer people get shot.
It's already escalated beyond the point where I can imagine it de-escalating.
Not to mention the fact that any intruders in the US are likely to be a wearing kevlar and carrying out robberies in groups. Unless its just a smackhead with a pistol.
Fancy defending your kids with pistol rounds that don't go through armour... in the dark.... whilst high calibre rounds tear through the plasterboard into your kids rooms....
[u]are likely to be[/u] a wearing kevlar and carrying out robberies in groups.
Any statistics on that?
Depends on how rich you are, like in SA... the big houses in rich areas tend to get hit by organised gangs.... poorer people tend to get hit by roving smackheads.....
this is stw.... so going with the former scenario
either way, fortifying your house gives the cops time to show up in scenario 1 and will likely totally deter junkies in scenario 2.
Not sure I'd entrust my life to a biometric scanner either lol.
the big houses in rich areas tend to get hit by organised gangs
Do they now...
Interesting that US burglary rates are lower than UK though, isnt it?
Im guessing US buglarys are more violent though..... unless you think thousands dying are worth a decrease in burglary rates.
Not read all the thread but to add my tupence, the US military bloggers I follow and they’re US following really do have a different mindset to a a typical Brit. Guns are part of them, and they really do think along the lines of owning them in case the government goes wrong or they are invaded.
I follow them for their critique of our military’s and the rising threat of our Chinese Lizard Overlords.
I must add that I abhor guns, I remember Michael Ryan going “falling down” in Hungerford and the pitiful response by the Police due to poor comms, equipment and training.
the rising threat of our Chinese Lizard Overlords.
Who have yet to engage in anywhere near the same kind of violence towards neighbours that americans have. Even with Tibet.
But yes, the Chinese are totes evil for wanting to boot out western imperialism from Asia.
Tom_W1987 - MemberPut it this way Jimjam, if a hardened Mexican criminal
Why so racist?
broke into your house with an AK47
..wouldn't be my first choice for a home invasion but whatever.
I doubt you'd have time to get a shot off. Youd be had, within seconds before you knew what was happening.
So with all of your firearms experience you know that there's almost no way anyone can legally own an AK-47 in the states? In most states they can own generic semi automatic AK lookalike variants but almost no one can legally own a full auto 7.62 AK-47 without extensive FBI and ATF background checks.....? You can legally own something similar in the UK albeit in a smaller calibre.
If I was living somewhere I needed a gun,
What about if you were living somewhere you could actually use a gun? IE you lived somewhere you could legally hunt to provide your family with meat for the year?
So with all of your firearms experience you know that there's almost no way anyone can legally own an AK-47 in the states? In most states they can own generic semi automatic AK lookalike variants but almost no one can legally own a full auto 7.62 AK-47 without extensive FBI and ATF background
Modifying a trigger group isn't hard....but I didn't say full auto did I.
They might not be as bad as we were or the Septics but that still don’t make them the good guys.
I find them more benign than the yanks.
Tom_W1987 - MemberModifying a trigger group isn't hard....but I didn't say full auto did I.
If you weren't trying to deal in hyperbole you would could/would have written "semi automatic rifle". Anyway, you are are constantly evading any rational reason for owning a firearm as per the standard STW befuddlement at US gun policy.
If you lived in rural USA why wouldn't you hunt for meat?
Does this men the all the Ar15 variants are not actually Ar15s because they do not have the automatic fire option either?
That's not a need for protection, it's for pleasure. I would, but a bolt action - locked away in an armoured guncase... like a civilised person.
Like you can here.
Tom_W1987 - MemberThat's not a need for protection, it's for pleasure. I woukd, but a bolt action - locked away in an armoured guncase.
Okay so just to clarify, if you lived in the states, you'd own a gun?
Do hardened Mexican criminals abide by the laws of legal AK47 ownership?
Why would you only own one in the states?
Tom_W1987 - MemberWhy would you only own one in the states?
We're discussing gun ownership in the states. Just to clarify, if you lived in rural USA you'd own a gun, right?
giantalkali - MemberDo hardened Mexican criminals abide by the laws of legal AK47 ownership?
Why so racist?
The inventor Mikhail Kalashnikov made gun and named it after himself as he had a dead hard name, it's a real shame the inventor of the AR15 / M16 didn't do the same...
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_Stoner ]Like, hey man...[/url]
Why not, but we are talking about ownership for defence.... presumably you're reason for doing so based on your past posts.
Owning a firearm for hunting purposes is a totally different ballgame.
Tom_W1987 - MemberWhy not, but we are talking about ownership for defence.... presumably you're reason for doing so based on your past posts.
You construed it as such. Did you bother to read my post or did you just zero in on some imagined point you disagreed with and decide to challenge me in order to make some kind of virtue signal to fellow forum members? Is the thread specifically about gun ownership for defence?
Owning a firearm for hunting purposes is a totally different ballgame.
Hence the diversity of opinion among gun owners in the US. Seriously.
Tom_W1987 - Member
He did.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stoner_63
/p>POSTED 2 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Well, bugger me. I'm off to get stoned.
EDIT - 100 million AK47s produced vs 4000 Stoner guns, I'm allowed not to have heard of them.
Watching John Wick for the first time. I now understand the personal defence argument.
The idea of being helpless and at the mercy of someone because they have a gun and I don't does not appeal to me
O RLY? Jimjam.... above quote begs to differ... you essentially addmited there that you would own a gun for defence.
Tom_W1987 - Member
The idea of being helpless and at the mercy of someone because they have a gun and I don't does not appeal to meO RLY? Jimjam.... above quote begs to differ...
Which was a actually a direct reply to your, selective or shall we say myopic post wherein you ignored an entire paragraph and tried to start an argument.
You seem to have some kind of aversion to admitting you would own a gun if you lived in the US. As if you're embarrassed to type the words. I have no problems stating that if I were to move to rural USA I would own a gun, and I would like to hunt to provide ethically sourced meat for my family. I also feel no qualms about saying that if I lived in a nation awash with firearms I would own a firearm for home protection. A fairly large number of forum members keep some kind of lethal weapon near hand just in the off chance a bad actor should break into their house.
I don't care what way you choose to colour that for forum prestige points.
You said you'd own one if you moved to the states, why not here? The only added excuse stateside is defence.
Unfortunately the forum doesn't have karma/prestige points like reddit...that'd be quite fun.
Tom_W1987 - MemberYou said you'd own one if you moved to the states, why not here?
Because the only thing I can legally hunt as a food source here (without considerable litigious difficulty) are the rabbits on my land. I can't really eliminate supermarket meat buying and replace it with rabbit meat, whereas I could actually do that if I had access to deer, elk, moose or pig.
The self defence aspect isn't bourne out of some deep harbored desire to shoot people, rather out of an honest assessment of being helpless as an unarmed man in the face of men armed with guns in a country awash with guns, as per my earlier posts.
I've posted before that I don't conceal weapons I wouldn't be comfortable using - that's because I do not want to kill people, or cripple them with dangerous weapons. I feel the same way about guns but if I was confronted with the likely reality of dealing with home invaders armed with guns I would have to be rational and respond in kind to at least create a stalemate.
Again, many people on this forum seem okay with braining people with a cricket bat or iron bar, in case they meet a more aggressive person with similar weapons. The same logic applies to guns