But if it’s upside down AND blocking the trail it probably does. And now you know because today, TJ, you’ve learned something new. Cool eh?
What I have learned is that some folk think this is a recognised signal. It isn't
Never seen it before. My initial thought would be that some ramblers won the fight, ditched the bodies and left the bikes there as a sign to others.
@Northwind summarises my feelings perfectly, I've been riding MTBs and reading the mags/forums since the late 80s and I don't recall a single time that anyone has ever mentioned this.
I agree it's a good idea, but universally recognised? /shrugs
Is there a book of recognized codes for every situation TJ. you'll have to give us a copy of your reference material.
Maybe theres meant to be a bloke waving a yellow flag 😆
Not to self for trail riding equipment
Pump - Check
Spare tube - Check
Bike tool - Check
Yellow flag - Check
I am not the only one who has never heard of this. therefore it is NOT a recognised signal. I don't ski and I knew about the crossed sticks - because that is a reecognised signal
Is there a book of recognized codes for every situation TJ.
No, which is the point.
don’t ski and I knew about the crossed sticks – because that is a reecognised signal
Interested to know how you found out about this. I absolutely did not know this when I first went skiing.
It became blindingly obvious the first time I saw it, probably on my first day.
Being a wide blue run and me moving slowly I was easily able to work it out.
The usage numbers and trail width on bike single track mean you could go years without coming across this, where it would only act as a physical barrier.
Blimey, this thread has gone into repeat mode.
OP has already said "just wanted to open the discussion. Didn’t mean for things to come across like this is the rule and everyone should know. As I admitted, I’ve never seen it myself. Hopefully we don’t see it often, but perhaps it can be adopted where sensible if there’s a need to block the trail."
we need an internationally recognised warning flag for 'circular argument - caution, once involved you cannot leave'
I think something like the roundabout sign but in yellow with black arrows
Interested to know how you found out about this.
I don't really know - probably reading up on mountain safety. Its something I have thought about and read about a lot over the years.
I think the confusion is along the lines of;
A. What is a recognizable signal there may be a problem up ahead
Or
B. What is a universally recognized signal there may be a problem up ahead.
Cycling along a trail, outwith a competition or a guided run,2 bikes that have been deliberately placed across the track, is a recognizable signal, rather than a universally recognized signal, that something is amiss up ahead, especially when the information to hand shows a blind summit where the road/trail leads that you cannot see forward enough to plan.
It's either a sign that there's a problem or its an ambush 😆
Common sense should tell you to slow down, maybe even stop, call out, go have a look see.
Never heard of it either, I've seen it plenty of times, but usually just nitwits fixing their bikes.
It will certainly be effective, first step of your DRSABC is Dangers, so as long as you have either someone to position the bikes, or your casualty does not require all consuming attention, then go for it.
And now you know because today, TJ, you’ve learned something new. Cool eh?
What I have learned is that some folk think this is a recognised signal. It isn’t
Stay special TJ.
It's pretty common in the resorts in Switzerland and France and so on, no real surprise as it's similar to the crossed ski thing. As bike parks become more common in the UK, and folk tend to ride in groups, perhaps we'll see it more here too, at the very least it slows on coming riders up (even if they sometimes try to get around bikes planted across the trail) Out on BW and in the hills, it's probably less useful
we need an internationally recognised warning flag for ‘circular argument – caution, once involved you cannot leave’
😆 I'm going with that! Officially recognised.. from now! (by me)
I’m with others that say you can’t get annoyed if people don’t understand your own made up code - the article says at first it was just one bike which is even less obvious. It would be a good clue that something was up but with all these people passing did nobody think to ask one of them to walk back up the trail stopping people at a junction? Not much point stopping everyone at the two bikes for an hour if there is nowhere to go.
I’ve seen the ski and snowboard thing before though.
But that is 1. Taught by every ski school worldwide; 2. On signs, posters on lifts and in books; 3. Used by ski patrol; 4. Not something that’s easy to confuse with ordinary muppetry!
The article, or at least it’s headline were a bit click baity - yes it’s obvious there is a problem even if it might just be a couple of folk walking the next section but to complain that people were passing it is niaive - half the moan actually seems to be that these people weren’t stopping to offer support, presumably the author is aware that on skitrails not everyone stops either if people seem to have it under control why form a crowd. If you need help you only need to shout “can I get some help here” and the timid will step forward - it’s the next level of the bystander effect, once someone else has stepped forward you can retreat into your bubble.
I've been mtbing, for over 20-years now and I've never heard or seen of that rule. it's a sensible one though.
Jesus, this place.
What's that saying about good deeds going unpunished?
Never heard of it either, sounds like a good idea. First instinct would have been to stop as well.
I've done the 'gone up the trail' in person to warn people.
Squirrelking - read northwinds answer on the first page. He sums it up well.
I have seen loads of bikes upside down on the path. Its always been muppetry.
To state this is a rule that we should all know when it is not is stupid.
Obviously bikes on the path mean slow down. However it does not have a recognised meaning in the way stated
I’m with others that say you can’t get annoyed if people don’t understand your own made up code
It isn't made up, it's just not that common in the UK is all.
However it does not have a recognised meaning in the way stated
It does, just not in the UK.
jeez, this place sometimes.
nickc - go on then. find a document that states this recognised meaning is officially accepted worldwide
I bet you cannot find any official guidence
I bet you cannot find any official guidence
I'm pretty sure I won't be able to, but last I was out in Morzine (2008), I helped guides do it and saw a couple of kids do this on two separate occasions, and once in Verbier also (in 2015/6 something like that). Get out of the wee bubble of UK biking and into Europe, and I'll bet your money that folks would have a different view on the article.
Just because there's no "official document" (and what does that even mean?) doesn't exclude the idea that something is common. Like a said, in ski resorts where they have a biking summer, it's well known, here not so much. For pretty much obvious reasons.
Now I know you don't frequent bike parks, and it's use on general trails isn't going to be that important, on high(ish) speed man made trails, a bunch of folk will now have a wee light go off in their heads if they ever see this at say BPW or Glentress...
I'm on Team TJ: I've never seen it in nearly 20 years of riding in Spain, either, so I find it hard to say it has a recognised meaning.
And while I don't think it's that bad an idea, it doesn't work anything like as well if you block the trail with just one bike - the first thing I'd think if I saw that was that it was a muppet who'd left his bike in the wrong place.
And if there's a group of you I'd say a much better idea is to send someone up the trail to warn people in person.
Interested to know how you found out about this. I absolutely did not know this when I first went skiing.
FWIW (and that’s not a lot), I was told about the crossed skis (or boards) thing by three different instructors in three different countries, Norway, Italy and France.
Good idea, never seen it myself in 15 years.
To catch on, it'll be important to teach riders NOT to put their bike anywhere near this position fixing a puncture etc...otherwise it might start causing confusion, and hesitation, when they're going gonzo.
So then nickc - its not a recognised meaning then like the crossed ski poles? I have ridden in Morzine and Les gets and no where did I see anything telling me this
Oh, I've got something new to add to this. Oh no I haven't sorry
Jeez this place. I wonder if anyone has said that yet.
Jeez this place
This. Healing vibes to Darren.
I don’t think anybody said they wouldn’t stop did they?
Then it’s done it’s job, no?
I have ridden in Morzine and Les gets and no where did I see anything telling me this
1, I'll willing to bet money that you'd not follow the instructions on anything blindly anyway, so let's call that moot. 2. I don't think the locals in ski resorts have to be told, I think they just swap poles for bikes come the summer.
Well I do vaguely recall hearing this in the past, but it wouldn't have been my first thought, so it's a useful article to remind / suggest that.
It does remind me of that slightly creepy wave that did the rounds last year in presenting something as "This is a thing, you should already know about this thing" - see also What 3 Words. There's a fine line between "option / convention" and "standard". See also:
I'd say depending on context, any deliberate attempt to block a trail (upside down bike, pile of Camelbaks, jacket tied between trees) would see me proceed with caution - even if it's kids / NIMBY dog walkers making obstructions, they may have made a bigger one round the next fast corner.
That said, it does strike me as more likely to be innocuous than say, the crossed skis, which it's hard to imagine being done without deliberate meaning. I certainly wouldn't be calling mountain rescue just from seeing an upside down bike.
F me.
It’s a good idea common sense idea - why the bloody bell are folks still arguing over it?!
Some of us know this or some of us know that. We don’t all know the same bloody thing. Let’s just agree that this is a pretty good idea whose sole intent is to make the trails safer…
Why does there need to be any kind of argument around it??
Some of you……….
why the bloody bell are folks still arguing over it?!
STW; come for the advice about your bottom bracket, stay for argument that follows
Really good, well written article drawing attention to a widely used signal (particularly in bike parks) which many people are not necessarily already aware of.
1, I’ll willing to bet money that you’d not follow the instructions on anything blindly anyway, so let’s call that moot
I would always follow instructions - but never blindly
so lets see - nothing I saw in Morzine or les Gets on bike park trails said this was a signal. Lots of other info about what to do in a crash but not this
Really good, well written article drawing attention to a widely used signal (particularly in bike parks) which many people are not necessarily already aware of.
Tautalogy?
Widely used / many people not aware?
its one or the other surely?
If you put two upside down bikes across a thread...
I wonder if tjagainandagainaandagainaandagainandagainandagainandagainandagainand... just rides over them
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Lots of other info about what to do in a crash but not this
I can't see what point you're trying to make here TJ, apart from "because I'm not aware of something, it therefore doesn't exist for anyone else" this is whole new level of obtuseness that I didn't think even you were capable of.
I'm going to summerise, as I I'm getting a bit lost
There's an article design to raise awareness about something that may be of benefit to some people, your complaint is that you weren't aware of the thing the article is trying to raise awareness about...
Is that a fair analysis of your argument?
FWIW (and that’s not a lot), I was told about the crossed skis (or boards) thing by three different instructors in three different countries, Norway, Italy and France.
Was this a 1:1 type instructor or big group ski school? and what age were you?
The whole lesson/instructor thing works differently in MTB, I guess nobody took bike lessons as a complete absolute beginner to off roading?
Whereas taking a course later on, whether thats for riding technique or big mountain safety is possibly more common than on snow, where most people I know just get on with it themselves once they got to the basic ability to turn and stop.
Is that a fair analysis of your argument?
Not as far as I've understood what he's said. The article portrays the "upside down bike" as some kind of internationally recognised system when it appears that plenty of people with a lot of experience have never come across.
It's not that it's a bad idea, it's the idea that everyone is at it.
In 30 years of riding, reading bike mags (that famously recycle articles) and doing MIAS and BC instructor courses I have no recollection of it as the accepted method.
Is that a fair analysis of your argument?
No
Because its not a recognised signal to the vast majority it will not do what its adherents propose. Look at us on here - many of us have never heard of this as a recognised signal. so if you put a bike upside down and expect it to bring you help it will not
thus its actually worse than useless as its adherents think it will acheive something it cannot
sure it will help keep muppets off the trail when its blocked.
if you put a bike upside down and expect it to bring you help it will not
It’s not to go get help, it’s to stop folk barrelling into a seriously injured rider, unseen at the point of no return on a jump, and the emergency services tending to him.
so if you put a bike upside down and expect it to bring you help it will not
That's not what it (or crossed skis) means. It just means there's a hazard ahead.
Is that the basis of the amount of energy you are putting into this strange argument you are making TJ? That you think this is some kind of signal for help?
It absolutely is not a signal for help. It's to indicate a hazard.. like a red triangle you put on the road when you break down.
Does that clear things up for you TJ?
That use is totally obvious. However its not what the posters have been saying nor what the article did?
I have seen bikes put like this when riders take a break or are doing repairs
Read northwinds post for why this is ill conceived
This bit?
Upside down bikes like in the photo are a good way to block a trail/warn people, yes. And also suggests possible mechanicals- if I see someone with an upside down bike at trailside I’ll ask if they need help. And it’s common sense that if someone’s made an effort to block a trail you should react and think about why… If we’re going to have a rule, it’s a good one.
