[Closed] UK's first Muslim Sectarian Murder ?

Some of who'm travelled and trained and fought in Syria.

And Drac, let me clarify my position a bit - the more bombings and more refugees we get, the greater the rise of the far right in Europe. You will see more images of muslims being beaten by police at borders, more attacks on Muslims in the streets and this will invariably legitimise ISIS as they go about using that for propaganda. It's a zero sum game for us, unless that is, we help secure and rebuild a country that is fit for people to return to - like we failed to do by ducking out early the first time around.

Before you make the point, "oh well, that will radicalise more Muslims" - take a look at your graph and note the years when we were occupying Iraq. Didn't illicit much of a homegrown reaction did it?

@Drac yes I was in London at the height and the bombings there focused on destroying property and creating disruption as the IRA used codewords to give warnings so evacuations could take place. Yes they bombed pubs like the one in Guildford which was frequented by soldiers as it was opposite the bus stop from Aldershot. Yes some of the attacks where aimed at civilians but they where not the modus operandi. The nature of he Islamist threat Al-Q / IS or rogue indivudal is very different and more similar to the Spanish separatists who focused on mass murder

It is strange how people here seek to divert attention from the topic under discussion via sweeping misrepresentations like "Islamophobia" and "demonising Muslims". Its a minority of the 2 billion Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.

[quote=jambalaya ] Its a minority of the 2 billion Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.If it was even 1% you'd know.

It is strange how people here seek to divert attention from the topic under discussion via sweeping misrepresentations like "Islamophobia" and "demonising Muslims". Its a minority of the 2 billion Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.

Now seems as good a time as any to post this again.

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On the plus side, I'm warming to Drac, despite previous run ins

Before you make the point, "oh well, that will radicalise more Muslims" - take a look at your graph and note the years when we were occupying Iraq. Didn't illicit much of a homegrown reaction did it?

You have to think of it in terms of feedback loops there immediate retaliation is unlikely, especially if the same propaganda is being promoted by the government installed by Western intervention... only once attrocities have been comitted, kids orphaned have grown up and the shock, fear and pain has tempered into hatred, will the backlash come into play.

Then of course there's the false flag scenario, which given modus operandi of Stay Behind Networks in the mould of NATO's Operation Gladio, are unfortunately all too likely.

Though the families of road accident victims don't need to be warned by the police to be careful what they say in order to protect their security.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12205279/Murdered-Muslim-shopkeepers-family-fear-for-their-lives.html

Though the families of victims face the same threat from road traffic incidents, don't they?

Referring back to an earlier post (sorry) I am not sure that describing the shopkeeper as ****stani is really such a bad thing. It was not being used in a derogatory fashion - to jump on that as a bad thing is loaded with assumptions about ****stanis, if you follow my logic. It was relevant in this context as the crime was said to be related to the person's ethnicity and religion.

I think about this a lot - I am a Kiwi. I have lived in Scotland for 20 years. If I hit the news I would have no problem being described as a Kiwi, I am proud to be a Kiwi. I would in fact be miffed to be described as a Scot.

This sits alongside what feels like continual confrontation of people who make nasty remarks about immigrants in front of me (including people I have known for many years). It never occurs to them that I might fall into the category of people they are unhappy with, because I am white and English is my first language.

Just some thoughts.

don't think it's a coincidence that the attacks have increased since we stopped keeping them occupied in their own backyards.

Quite the opposite.

The current rash of bombings and shootings in Europe by Daesh are the result of desperation, because they are being defeated and beaten back in their stronghold in Northern Iraq/Syria..

Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced.

Classic Jambyfact

Even the torygraph says you are completely wrong

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/12203697/West-Europe-is-safer-now-than-in-the-1970s.-And-safer-than-almost-any-other-region-in-the-world.html

Using ridiculous hyperbole to demonise the religion, sounds like Islamaphobia to me

That really is just so stupid. There are MILLIONS of Muslims "worldwide" and the percentage of those who could be labelled "Muslims from Planet Earth" who are committed to violent Jihad is so tiny it could barely be measured. Jambalaya is.... wrong.

Before you make the point, "oh well, that will radicalise more Muslims"

Don't worry I wasn't going to make that claim.

So, if the IRA were so kind to ring up with a code word why were there so many people killed?

So nice of them to bomb Harrods Christmas shoppers, I take it that's where the army shop.

Muslims worldwide who are responsible for the greatest terrorist threat we have ever faced. Whether that minority is 1%, 5%, 10% I don't know.

You suggest that 10% of the 1 billion+ muslims in the world might be responsible for Islamic terrorism but you're definitely not prejudiced against muslims. 😆

Around 10,000+ gun killings per year in the USA, largely by Christians, I guess, and most of them able to travel freely to Europe. Sounds pretty scary.

Quite the opposite.

The current rash of bombings and shootings in Europe by Daesh are the result of desperation, because they are being defeated and beaten back in their stronghold in Northern Iraq/Syria..

"The Syrian state still does not have enough military resources to score an outright victory against both ISIL and the other Syrian rebels in the near term, even with the residual Russian forces remaining."

So what they will do, is carry out a concerted campaign of terrorism and division in the hopes of bringing in more recruits. Not to mention the fact that if we are seen to be supporting Assad, that will radicalise more moderate Muslims who loathe Assad even more than they do western intervention. I know and have heard from quite a few Syrians that were more pissed about us not intervening, than anything else we'd done.

The head of the snake needs cutting off as ISIS' propaganda capability is reliant on it being seen as a state, whilst we actually have support from sections of the Syrian and Iraqi community. Then the UN needs to step in and help to rebuild the country. It cannot become a stateless vacuum with "Here be dragons" stamped over the area on maps. Hosting millions of refugees here is simply a case of treating the symptoms as opposed to the cause, something which the nihilistic left seems happy to do.

I know and have heard from quite a few Syrians that were more pissed about us not intervening, than anything else we'd done.

Are some of them your best friends?

Are some of them your best friends?

Very funny, but try taking a look at some of the debate surrounding intervention within the well educated Syrian/Iraqi/Iranian community.

Again, the left has no answers apart from platitudes and smart alec nihilism - the toxic shock it's suffering from the Tony years has made it utterly incapable of deciding on any course of action that might actually solve the crisis.

🙂

Newsflash everyone, we already have planes and special forces in the area. The people who are going to hate us for intervening, hate us already. Why not actually take responsibility for the mess we created by occupying the area in the first place - and then leaving early before the job was actually done.

Yes some of the attacks where aimed at civilians but they where not the modus operandi.

yes I was in London at the height

well if Jamby looks like a [blank]
sounds like a [blank]
it probably is a [blank]

@grum I don't know what the correct number is but my assertion is that its a lot higher than many people will acknowledge.

@mike as a minimum I think 90% of Muslims are not radicalised so clearly I'm a supporter, no ? The most populist Muslim country is Indonesia and they don't see to be causing the West a problem do they ? I want to see the substantial Muslim population we have in the uk enjoy all the benefits of this fantastic country. Those that aren't interested, be they British citizens or not can go elsewhere, somewhere that better supports their lifestyle aspirations

@kona - shift in what way ? My assertion is the ira's primary objective was to cause commercial damage and disruption, secondary was to target the military and thirdly civilians

Those that aren't interested, be they British citizens or not can go elsewhere, somewhere that better supports their lifestyle aspirations

What are the acceptable lifestyle aspirations one needs to have to be allowed to remain in the UK?

On the Scottish or ****stani thing, his family's statement says:

He was a brilliant man, recognising that the differences between people are vastly outweighed by our similarities. And he didn't just talk about this, he lived it each and every day, in his beloved community of Shawlands and [u]his country of Scotland[/u].

@ben as far as I am concerned he was a role model British citizen

Lifestyle aspirations, to live in the UK you should support British values and accept the rule of law.

Don't tell me failing to do so will result in transportation to the colonies?

to live in the UK you should support British values...

What even are [i]British[/i] values? I strongly suspect you mean white middle class male values, personally...

British values include worshipping a Palestinian, deferring to Germans, speaking bastardised French and doing whatever an Australian billionaire tells us to. Get it right ffs

My assertion is the ira's primary objective was to cause commercial damage and disruption, secondary was to target the military and thirdly civilians

What even are British values? I strongly suspect you mean white middle class male values, personally...

@kona Jesus was Jewish.

He did live in Palestine though, same as being from Scotland makes you Scottish

Around 10,000+ gun killings per year in the USA, largely by Christians, I guess, and most of them able to travel freely to Europe. Sounds pretty scary.

Palestine as defined in the Bible, a predominantly Jewish land (not a country) for 1000's of years with Jerusalem as the largest city, long before the advent of Christianity I think you'll find.

This Yorkshire school most definitely does notromote British values, read it yesterday but didn't comment on here.

[i]Other leaflets and newsletters, some of which are distributed to Deobandi mosques, say all mixed-sex institutions are evil, warn Muslims not to adopt British customs, ban the watching of TV, and tell women not to go out to work and to be fully covered before leaving the house.[/i]

[url= http://news.sky.com/story/1670528/exposed-uk-school-promoting-extreme-islam ]Sky News[/url]

Prejudices, it is well known, are most difficult to eradicate from the heart whose soil has never been loosened or fertilised by education: they grow there, firm as weeds among stones.

seems apt.

I just dont get the desperation to defend what is so bleeding obviously a malicious unpleasant ideology. You all want to be liberal feee thinkers not swayed by the man or full of hate bit c'mon for god (ha) sake even the dumbest of the dumb can see much of what Islam promotes is abhorent.

Not all Nazi's worked on Gas chambers, some drove trucks, some were teachers, some worked on farms etc etc but all had the underlying intent and even if only by not objecting were conspiritors in the crimes.

George Galloway in the New Statemen .. note [b]not a tiny minority[/b] I agree here with Galloway I just think the numbers are much higher

[i]
“There is something else, and this is more painful for Muslims to hear,” he says, leaning in closer. “There is something present in the Muslim Ummah – people – there is something present. There is a germ of extremism and sectarianism that affects a minority of Muslims, but not a tiny minority.

“If you put it in a worldwide context, it affects millions. If you put it in Britain, it definitely affects thousands. Not many thousands, but thousands – not hundreds – of extremists, who carry within them sectarian and fanatic interpretation of Islam, which is deeply, deeply damaging to Islam, to themselves, and of course to the innocent people who they harm[/i]

I just dont get the desperation to defend what is so bleeding obviously a malicious unpleasant ideology

@kona Jesus was Jewish.

Does that make British Christian values=Jewish values as applied in Palestine?

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[img] ?1349454128[/img]

Never mind, as least the root cause of Extremist Islam has been identified:

[img] [/img]
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23622364 ]
What did happen to the documents relating to the investigation into the Al-Yamamah Arms Deal anyhoo?[/url]

By the way here is Galloway's description of Sadiq Khan, not British, not English but ****stani. There is really ntohing in that despote posters here tying to make something of it

[i]Islamophobia is one of the reasons why he doesn’t fancy the Labour mayoral candidate and Tooting MP Sadiq Khan’s chances. “It was always a big ask for a ****stani called Khan to be elected,”[/i]

[i]"Around 10,000+ gun killings per year in the USA, largely by Christians, I guess...."[/i]

Interesting on STW that usually people like to make out that Christianity is dead and hardly any Christians really exist, and then we see comments like the above. I'm sure that atheists are also amongst the thousands of murderers out there in the world, but defending prejudice against one religion by being prejudiced against another (or against atheists) is unhelpful.

Seems to be a big problem in human nature~ even when we discuss things trying to find a solution, conflict seems inevitable... doesn't really matter what religion, skin colour, gender or sexual orientation people are, some of them just need to stop and think a bit before being such asshats.

Maybe we should just leave things on their current trajectory, then when the vast military investment of the worlds ruling elite is finally used to it's full potential, the planet's fate can serve as a lesson to other beings in the vast universe when they finally figure out how to harness technology without hostile intent and visit earth to find methane is once again the dominant lifeform, as humans were too volatile.

@kona Jesus was Jewish.
POSTED 3 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Get out. Jesus? Jewish? Born in Bethlehem, brought up in Nazareth, died and risen in Bethlehem? That Jesus? Jewish? Are you sure?

By the way here is Galloway's description of Sadiq Khan, not British, not English but ****stani. There is really ntohing in that despote posters here tying to make something of it

Islamophobia is one of the reasons why he doesn’t fancy the Labour mayoral candidate and Tooting MP Sadiq Khan’s chances. “It was always a big ask for a ****stani called Khan to be elected,”

I think George is definitley talking to you on that one Jamba. 🙄

Church now accepts Jesus was Jewish, for some time to convert to Christianity you had to be Jewish first (so I have been told). I just thought that was more pertinent than your comment he was Palestinian

@thestabiliser I was quoted that as some posters here have been trying to make something of the fact I called the shopkeeper ****stani when I did that as that's what the BBC said and at the time there was no comment about whether he was British citizen. I wonder how he voted in the Referendum ?

Galloway (odious little toad though he is 99% of the time) has clearly used that description to allude to the fact that a significant proportion of the electorate are a little bit racist. Durrr.

Get out. Jesus? Jewish? Born in Bethlehem, brought up in Nazareth, died and risen in Bethlehem? That Jesus? Jewish? Are you sure?