Forum menu
Yesterday a number of friends posted links suggesting it had been a sectarian killing by another Muslim unhappy that the shop keeper had posted a message on Facebook wishing all his Christian customers a happy Easter
First of all define sectarianism. It seems it was Muslim on Muslim violence and if one of the them was Sunni and one Shia then maybe it was. However as the perpetrator was found laughing whilst sitting on the victims bleeding chest it appears he may have been just plain mental. Now whether religion played a part or gave him the excuse is another question.
@Boardingbob well said.
I think this is quite different to the honour killings which go on, those are appalling but fit a more normal format for murders where the victim/perpetrator know each other. This appears to be entirely religously motivated due to differences in what is true Islam.
@upon I imagine he was laughing as he believed he had done a great thing, clealry unbalanced but you can say that about any suicide bomber or someone that cuts the heads off fellow Muslims
@mike I pointed out the killer had travelled 200 miles not least as its shows its not "classic" inter Glaswegian sectarianism
was that how most of the protestant/Catholic sectarian killers behaved? Is it common for murders to act like that? Sectarian violence is nothing new, murder is nothing new, however the reports seem to suggest someone who was not mentally stable.clealry unbalanced but you can say that about any suicide bomber or someone that cuts the heads off fellow Muslims
CountZero - Member
poah - Member
pretty sure the shop keeper was Scottish.Your point being, caller?
Clearly failing to understand the basic difference between race and religion.
Yes, clearly failing to see that ****stani's are neither a race, or religion.
Utterly brilliant. 😀
BoardinBob - Member
This happened round the corner from me. Would often pop into his shop. There has been a real genuine outpouring of grief in the community.
Regardless of the motivation, a good man has been murdered and has left a devastated family and community behind.
Forum smart arse point scoring isn't needed...
Agreed.
scotroutes - Member
Christianity? Yep. And a few folk on this forum are forever pointing it out.
POSTED 11 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Its not about who's fairy tale is worse, we've had our wars and and put that nonsense in a box marked optional, we are now importing someone elses problems from a part of the world that is 200 years behind Western Europe.
mikewsmith - Member
...was that how most of the protestant/Catholic sectarian killers behaved?...
Nah, they're yellow-bellied cowards. Usually 10 on 1.
Unfortunately we have seen Muslim on Muslim murders int he UK before. A few years ago a poor girl was murdered by her two brothers and father - stabbed 27 times then her throat cut, in an honour killing because she refused to go ahead with an arranged Marriage. It's not the first time either - not common, but certainly not unheard of in the UK. And that is not to mention the countless girls who run away from home, fearing for their lives as soon as they get wind of their parents arranging a marriage for them.
The problem is that within the Muslim faith there are alot of sects and they are effectively at war with each other - always have been - long before Western interventions. And the issue of mixing up race and religion is not too far away from the truth as in the more extreme sects they see themselves as Muslims first and nationality is not important or relevant - that is why they want an Islamic State. I'm sure in this case the murderer was not concerned if this poor guy was ****stani, Scottish, British or anything, he was just bothered about his more tolerant, moderate form of Islam that he was pushing which was effectively Blasphemy in his eyes.
I've had conversations with some pretty strict Muslims in the UAE when I travelled out there with work - not extremists, but pretty strict - you're talking about people who don't even swallow saliva during Ramadan as it is effectively drinking water and therefore breaking fast. I asked one such work colleague about his views on wishing westerners a Happy Christmas out of mutual respect for another person, as I had no problems giving them cards wishing them Happy Eid, even though I was a Christian (actually an Atheist but I wouldn't have admitted that to them). I was a bit surprised by his answer as he said he wouldn't as it would effectively be acknowledging another religion and in the more strict forms of Islam there is only one religion and acknowledgement of other religions is Blasphemy. So in these extreme sects of Islam there is no room for mutual respect for other religions. So clearly in the case of this terrible murder, in the act of wishing Christians a Happy Easter, the poor victim was effectively committing Blasphemy in the eyes of the more strict Muslims within the community, and of course in the more strict forms of Islam Blasphemy is punishable by death.
Just like to point out that "honour" killings are culturally based, not due to Islamicism.
Carry on.
Very sad story. There have been quite a number of stories about sectarian conflict in the UK Muslim community (primarily Sunni on Shia) in the press over the past year or so, so I don't think this is a new thing:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31691120
Just like to point out that "honour" killings are culturally based, not due to Islamicism.
Really? 🙄
wobbliscott - Member
... - not extremists, but pretty strict - you're talking about people who don't even swallow saliva during ...
That's rather common to some extend. Where I used to be they would spit because they were not allowed or taught not to swallow saliva. As a kid I did not know why they kept spitting so my friends explained to me that it was a form of taking in liquid. The situation in the far east now is more extreme due to middle east influences. It's a situation that will escalate in future ...
So clearly in the case of this terrible murder, in the act of wishing Christians a Happy Easter, the poor victim was effectively committing Blasphemy in the eyes of the more strict Muslims within the community, and of course in the more strict forms of Islam Blasphemy is punishable by death.
This ^^^
As an aside, if the murdered killed the guy because he was insufficiently pious (in the murderer's opinion), I don't think that qualifies as a sectarian murder. Surely a sectarian murder is one where someone is killed because they're a member of another sect?
If Catholic A kills Catholic B for advocating for birth control, that's religiously motivated but not sectarian. But if Catholic A murders Protestant B for being a Protestant, then that is sectarian.
Also, wasn't there an imam killed in a playpark at night in Bradford or something last month? Was that not religiously motivated then? And a Syrian lay preacher type guy killed outside a mosque in west London?
So I don't think Islam has much to teach protestants/Catholics about not murdering each other right now.
And vice versa. "We" only just got around to convicting one of the directors of a Christian fundamentalist genocide of Muslims in the heart of Europe. He killed 9,000 Muslims and roamed free for the next decade. Osama bin Laden killed 4,000 Americans and "we" invaded and destroyed the country he was living in (rather than the one that was funding him).
Never heard of anyone not swallowing saliva before and neither is it a stipulation if you are fasting. In fact it's quite common to rinse your mouth out with water if it's getting too dry but then someone's always knows someone or who's got a mate that's s bit extreme.
lalazar - Member
Never heard of anyone not swallowing saliva before and neither is it a stipulation if you are fasting. In fact it's quite common to rinse your mouth out with water if it's getting too dry but then someone's always knows someone or who's got a mate that's s bit extreme.
That's your interpretation but not in other parts of the world.
@kona - the definition of sectarian I use (or my understanding of the term) would make this a sectarian murder as both where part of the same overall religion just different branches/sects. FWIW I think tha Catholic/Protestant violence was much more driven by pro/anti British than the religious differences. I would agree that the conviction of Karadich has taken far too long but he was well hidden and protected for many years.
Many Jewish people will not acknowledge Christmas, we sub-let some space from a Jewish owned company and it was a condition of the lease that we did not have a Christmas tree or decorations. However, I very much doubt we would have been murdered had we breached that lease term.
I've never heard of Jewish people not acknowledging Christmas. I've heard of them not celebrating it, though.
(And I wonder whether that term of the lease would be enforceable at law).
Karadzic wasn't well-hidden. He swanned around Republika Srpska for years quite openly before he moved to Belgrade. There was a lack of political will to capture him.
Maybe it's your interpretation chewkw seeing as you were only a kid amongst other kids.
I think I'd make it a condition of a lease not to have Christmas decorations too.
FWIW I think tha Catholic/Protestant violence was much more driven by pro/anti British than the religious differences
I think the rest of the world called it sectarian.
The bit that depresses me most is the bit where people seem to want this to be sectarian and make it about Muslims, as if they would be really happy if it was done with a muslamic Ray gun.
lalazar - Member
Maybe it's your interpretation chewkw seeing as you were only a kid amongst other kids.
No, because the interpretation is also consistence amongst certain adults that practice a stricter form of belief there. We have Talib groups or branch in that region too so stricter form of practice is also gaining grounds.
I ain't going to discuss with them what they think is right or wrong so long as they don't impose on me. They can do whatever they like with/to themselves.
Some of these posts sound like over protective parents excusing their errant off spring...but, but, but...you're not helping anyone.
Some of these posts seem to want to blame the entirety of a very large religion for the actions of a very few people who claim to follow it.
gobuchul - Member
Just like to point out that "honour" killings are culturally based, not due to Islamicism.
Really?
Yes. That's why I said so. You have evidence of the contrary?
There are plenty of Islamic countries where "honour" killings do not take place.
The same for wearing the "Niqab" or the like. Or perhaps you'd like to demur with another patronising emoticon.
There are plenty of Islamic countries where "honour" killings do not take place.
So what?
There are honour killings in the UK and it's not an Islamic country.
They are pretty much exclusive to a certain part of the Islamic community.
So what?There are honour killings in the UK and it's not an Islamic country.
They are pretty much exclusive to a certain part of the Islamic community.
On average a woman is murdered by her current or former partner every 3 days in England and Wales, overwhelmingly in the christian/atheist community, not the "Islamic community"
Bad people exist everywhere shocka.
If Catholic A kills Catholic B for advocating for birth control, that's religiously motivated but not sectarian. But if Catholic A murders Protestant B for being a Protestant, then that is sectarian.
"Sect" is not the same as "Denomination".
For example,Mel Gibson's dad is a Catholic (denomination), but belongs to a sect called Traditional Catholicism. Among various extreme beliefs, he is a proponent of Sedevacantism, which states that the current occupant of the Vatican is not the true Pope:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutton_Gibson
He also believes Vatican II was a Jewish Masonic plot, and has questioned the holocaust.
So your scenario could well be an example of sectarian behaviour, even though both people belong to the same denomination.
gobuchul - Member
There are plenty of Islamic countries where "honour" killings do not take place.
So what?
So the idea that "honour killings" are an attribute of Muslim society [i]per se[/i] is not correct, although as this thread and others show, it is a mistake often made by those who wish to create a stick with which to beat it.
I hope that's clear and not likely to run foul of your tendency to be obtuse.
Read this to make up your mind but it's from Wiki though.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing ]Honor Killing from Wiki[/url]
Sadly very many honour killings in India. Its far from a "Mulsim" issue. @ernie domestic violence is very differemt from honour killings
@kona you are right [i]acknowledge[/i] was a poor word to chose
As an aside it seems the murderer was a Bradford Uber driver. Uber have said he passed all driver screening including "enhanced" criminal bureau checks
@ernie domestic violence is very differemt from honour killings
You think so?
[i][b]Atheist Kills Girlfriend For Being A "Slag"[/b][/i] might not be a headline that you will ever see
but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen regularly.
I don't see your point, the vast majority of murders are committed by people against others they know. A sectarian murder of one Muslim by another for religious reasons which takes place in Glasgow in 2016 is headline news for a very obvious reason.
A sectarian murder of one Muslim by another for religious reasons which takes place in Glasgow in 2016 is headline news for a very obvious reason.
Perhaps waiting for things like a psychiatric report, was this guy doing it because he really wanted to or because the voices in his head told him to. The headline for me is somebody killed somebody.
Again, jambalaya - you could try not to sound so pleased. I realise you relish anything that fits your 'muslims bad' narrative but tragic as this is it's unlikely to be part of a wider pattern.
And yes there is a problem with extremist interpretations of Islam and realising that doesn't make someone a racist - but we do need to be very careful not to start making generalisations and extrapolations that could be racist, especially given that Muslims are the media baddies of choice right now.
jambalaya - MemberI don't see your point
Fair enough, let me try to explain.
Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim. In contrast when a crime is committed by a christian or an atheist, for example, there is usually little emphasizes on their beliefs.
Secondly, you might think that it is [i]"very different"[/i] when a low-life stabs his wife to death because she wants to leave him, or some psycho kicks his girlfriend to death because he doesn't like the way she looks at other men, to so-called honour killings, but I don't think it is [i]"very different"[/i].
I have already pointed out that in England and Wales one woman is killed every 3 days by her current or former partner. This isn't somehow more acceptable than so-called honour killings because it's [i]"very different"[/i].
Thirdly, it's fairly clear to me that you are exploiting this latest tragic and horrific crime to further your long standing anti-Muslim agenda. And I'm not the only one who has come to that conclusion.
Hope you understand my point better now.
^^
You are wonderful and rational
Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim. In contrast when a crime is committed by a christian or an atheist, for example, there is usually little emphasizes on their beliefs.
In the same way that only one of these was labeled as terrorism, the others were just mass shootings or normal law breaking...
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/456893
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/423223
http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/incident/359830http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-04/militiamen-seize-us-government-buildings-reports/7065464
Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim.
No there isn't. For example the Rotherham accused were almost always being described as of Asian origin when Muslim would have been more accurate. They weren't Sikh or Hindu they were Muslim.
As for terrorist attacks - mentioning the fact they are Muslim is relevant when that religion is a motivating factor in the atrocity concerned.
Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim.
No there isn't. For example the Rotherham accused were almost always being described as of Asian origin when Muslim would have been more accurate. They weren't Sikh or Hindu they were Muslim.
Seeks to disprove point by proving point. I'm confused. Moreso by what their religion had to do with the fact that they were paedophiles (beyond sharing a common denominator), I don't see the religious preferences of Savile et al being called into question.
Muslim death in the news and Jambalaya all over it like a pig in shit... Surprise, surprise...
"Firstly, whenever a Muslim commits an appalling crime there is a tendency to emphasize the fact that they are Muslim."No there isn't. For example the Rotherham accused.......
Are you seriously suggesting that there was little attempt to emphasize that they were Muslim? That's remarkable. Did you eventually find out after reading extensively about the case?
As an aside it seems the murderer was a Bradford Uber driver. Uber have said he passed all driver screening including "enhanced" criminal bureau checks
Unfortunately those background checks don't ask if you base your entire life decisions around a make believe man in the sky.
It doesn't matter if it's Christianity, Judaism, Islam or whatever particular fairy story someone believes in, religion is just awful.
@boarding "man in the sky" has no relevance here at all
@benny and your point is ? My point is that this is I believe the first overtly sectarian Muslim on Muslim murder I am aware of. This is relevant due to the many 100'000s of similar such sectarian murders in the past 10 years in the Middle East. What I worry about is that spreading to the UK where we have many Muslims living perfectly happily and contributing positively to our spciety who risk being the victims of a small group of fanatics
@boarding "man in the sky" has no relevance here at all
[img] 
[/img]
Globalization for you- You can't import people to pick asparagus cheaply(or drive cabs) without importing their deranged ideology.
What I worry about is that spreading to the UK
The UK already has sectarian violence. does that keep you up at night as well?