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I think that philosophically we agree but the details may not please everyone.
@Edukator - you appear have a hair trigger for anti-French sentiment but I don't read it that way. I think most of us love France and the French (in their many varied forms, just like here) but some things don't sit well. It's the same with the UK govt too.
who would be happy to see Ukraine fall and yes I’m arguing, arguing against just that.
You actually think some in this thread want that? Really?
Now you're trying to put words in my mouth, relapsed_mandalorin, using those inevitable putting words into other people's mouths question marks, underhand STW dirty tricks department tactics #8. Read what I actually wrote, I listed some right-wing populist authoritarian political parties and leaders, they are whom I am saying would be happy to see Ukraine fall.
I haven't seen anybody keen for the Ukraine to fall on this thread, though some would clearly like Macron and or France to fall. 😉 Clear? and that's a smiley right.
A little reminder: "united we stand, divided we fall"
I give up you're seeing unicorns when the rest of us see old tired donkeys
Metaphor overload!
Please, not now.
Ahhh please everyone give it a rest!
I think most of us love France and the French (in their many varied forms, just like here)
I'm ambivalent, actually, but that's a topic for another thread.
Who are the 7 likes? Russian bots?
Well it's 16 now. Probably the regular posters and lurkers of this thread who don't care about Macron's ulterior motives, who loves France least or any of the other irrelevant to topic bollocks that's been spouted on here the last couple of days.
I say this fully expecting my first ban here. Please **** off if you can't keep to the thread subject.
Sounds like last night was a heavy one for ukraine and Russia chucked hundreds of drones and missles at them, damaging power supplies. I thought russia was running out of missles? If reports are right it chucked another 90 at ukraine last night....
Several gunmen have attacked a theatre in Moscow shooting into the audience https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-68642036
This type of incident has preceded counter-terrorism operations in the past and in 2002 was connected to the 2nd Chechen War
You mean a false flag operation? Indeed plenty of history and conspiracy theories for it in Russia. There will suddenly be lots of evidence linking it to Ukraine 'fascists' and supplying a pretext for some kind of escalation. I can't see most of the world falling for it though, if that's what it turns out to be. Ukraine has been consistent in it's military targeting and knows it can't engage in terrorism as it'd lose support. Either way it's a grim turn of events...
Ukraine has been consistent in it’s military targeting and knows it can’t engage in terrorism as it’d lose support.
But those that are sympathetic to their cause would. Besides, everyone can grow beards so not necessarily religious (or 2nd Chechen war) related because that does not make sense anymore in the current context.
plenty of history and conspiracy theories for it in Russia.
And by Putin in particular, the 1999 Moscow apartment bombings are (largely thanks a whistleblower called Alexander Litvinenko) now widely recognized as a false flag designed to consolidate Putin's hold on power and justify the 2nd Chechan War.
The truth will come out in due course.
But those that are sympathetic to their cause would. Besides, everyone can grow beards...
Screw this, I'm out again.
BBC has reported ISIS claims responsibility
The misguided ones strike again.
Not sure what they intend to achieve other than trying to drive a wedge into Russia.
Isis?
Bit left field. But... Russia has vetoed the ceasefire in Gaza which kinda helps the Isrealis to the detriment of Palestinians. Could it be Isis has done this in retaliation?
At least it makes it harder for Russia to claim it was Ukraine that did it.
Isis?
Yes, according to BBC.
But… Russia has vetoed the ceasefire in Gaza which kinda helps the Isrealis to the detriment of Palestinians. Could it be Isis has done this in retaliation?
Possible. That's why they are the misguided ones.
At least it makes it harder for Russia to claim it was Ukraine that did it.
Everything is possible in war.
I thought it might be due to the Gaza vote but I'd assume such an attack would take longer than a few hours to enact?
If it was who said it was, I imagine they would have had a cell in place, it being more premeditated than reactionary?
I'm sure they're are still plenty of pissed off Chechens in Russia.
From the Guardian....
Earlier this month, western countries led by the United States had issued terror warnings and told their citizens not to join public gatherings in Russia. On 8 March, the US embassy wrote it was “monitoring reports that extremists have imminent plans to target large gatherings in Moscow, to include concerts, and US citizens should be advised to avoid large gatherings over the next 48 hours”.
Surprising how much the Americans know. Also, does them putting that out there give Russia the chance to say it was the US?
Shitshow.
Reminds me that Kadyrov scumbag has been quiet of late. Like various pretenders and Putin acolytes he was all mouth at the start of this war.
I’m sure they’re are still plenty of pissed off Chechens in Russia.
Plenty of Chechens made their way to fight with the Taliban in Afghanistan. They were carrying plenty of experience and technical know-how that they cross decked to the local fighters.
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that some of those loyalties remain within the ranks of the Chechens.
It'll be interesting to see where the reporting on this goes.
apparently USA had been warming Russia an ISIS attack was incoming for a while
https://twitter.com/MarquardtA/status/1771284591443112321?t=dFaiMIvuTwX8UB_S7ZkeIA&s=19
im sure the Gaza veto was coincidence, but the significance won't have been lost, considering Russia's involvement in Syria and beyond, im surprised that something like this hasn't happened sooner
pretty remarkable that with the war in Ukraine russian security services weren't looking for an attack on moscow, or maybe just blind to it.
Firstly, 60+ civilian deaths is horrendous and a tragedy.
The Putin's utter disregard for human life, civilian and otherwise is well documented but we should resist the temptation to indulge in schadenfreude this was not a 'good' thing, it was an atrocity.
Russia's security apparatus is usually mainly focused on domestic dissent from the various subjugated ethnic groups that compose the Russian Federation, for the last 2 years Ukraine has been taking up all their bandwidth so there's been a lot of speculation that something along these lines would break out.
Kadyrov will have some awkward questions to answer as this attack almost certainly had support from his fiefdom.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/first-ukrainian-pilots-graduate-from-raf-flight-training
Off to the French next for what I imagine is more combat focussed aviation, then conversion to type on F-16. No word who is providing that element at this link.
I'm going to be brutally honest and it is another unnecessary tragedy, but I find myself lacking in sympathy given the track record of Russia globally. I'll also add I'm not happy it happened, I'd rather, like a lot of things connected with Russia, it didn't happen but here we are. The list of their incursion/invasions is prolific.
Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Ukraine, Azerbaijan, Estonia, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Afghanistan, Belarus, Chechnya, Crimea, Finland, Georgia, Germany, Latvia, Mongolia, Soviet invasion of Armenia
Everyone is calling it a terrorist tragedy and yet, Russia as a so called developed country but designated a terrorist state by some, is actively killing civilians in another country they invaded and Medvedev and others calling for the destruction of the country and population. Then asking for sympathy or compassion. Post Kursk, I'm not expecting putin to have a big presence on this one either.
I can't wait for Nebenzya to start bleating at the UN. And what will the Pope have to say?
"Firstly, 60+ civilian deaths is horrendous and a tragedy.
The Putin’s utter disregard for human life, civilian and otherwise is well documented but we should resist the temptation to indulge in schadenfreude this was not a ‘good’ thing, it was an atrocity."
Absolutely, the world needs less othering. Russian people =! Russian State.
" I find myself lacking in sympathy given the track record of Russia globally. "
Interesting, what are your thoughts on 9/11, 7/7, Manchester Arena, Bataclan and numerous other attacks? Did you find it hard to muster sympathy then?
On the why's, probably more to do with Russian engagement in Syria than anything else. That Gaza vote is just a propoganda bonus.
I must admit that my first thoughts were 'oh no, this will either be linked to Ukraine or Putin will successfully be able to pin it on them'.
Whilst it doesn't reduce the horror of what happened, the geopolitical impact of this being am Islamist terror attack only makes Putins situation much, much harder.
The attack killed theatre goers in Moscow, these will be the families of Russia's elites, he will not be able to ignore calls for massive reprisals, if he isn't seen to act quickly he will look weak in front of the Russia's most influential people, the ones that tend to topple leaders and have done so in the past.
But what can he do when every asset Russia has is currently fully focused on Ukraine?
Dilemmas upon dilemmas
Another oil refinery hit
Woohoo! 🙄
Russian independent journalists writing for Verstka reported that military recruitment has “dropped sharply”.
The number of visitors to the Unified Contract Hiring Center in Moscow decreased from 500-600 per day to 20-30 per day.
https://understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-march-22-2024
The terrorism at the Crocus City Hall theatre in Moscow may cause an uptick in recruitment
Another oil refinery hit
The FT reports that the US has asked Ukraine to slow down on this form of warfare because it increases prices at the pumps, which could knock on to the outcome of the US elections https://www.politico.eu/article/report-us-urges-ukraine-stop-attacking-russian-oil-refineries/
Something has to give... weapon supply or fuel supply, but giving both up will be difficult for Ukraine
I confess to feeling uncomfortable when people's first thought about an attack like this, is to look for an angle that will cause Putin's regime difficulties, rather than a little human empathy. I despise Putin and desperately want Ukraine to prevail, but it was ordinary Russians on the receiving end of this, not Putin. As someone said above, concert goers being murdered in Moscow is no different to the same happening in Manchester.
I confess to feeling uncomfortable when people’s first thought about an attack like this, is to look for an angle that will cause Putin’s regime difficulties, rather than a little human empathy.
Of course. Unfortunately the fact is that the civilian population of Ukraine have been caused massive suffering in the Donbas initially and later across Ukraine. The 2022 mass-murder at Bucha and the 151 missiles and drones that were launched overnight Thursday leaving over a million households without power are choices made by Russia.
Ukraine will be looking for "angles", because it's the smaller force with logistics problems, in the hope that a Russian withdrawal happens which will be the best outcome for everyone. It doesn't mean that you aren't/can't be empathic as well
I confess to feeling uncomfortable when people’s first thought about an attack like this, is to look for an angle that will cause Putin’s regime difficulties, rather than a little human empathy. I despise Putin and desperately want Ukraine to prevail, but it was ordinary Russians on the receiving end of this, not Putin. As someone said above, concert goers being murdered in Moscow is no different to the same happening in Manchester.
Agreed.
But there's one state and one leader who can put an end to the vast majority of the violence - and end it today. I've no internal conflict over the violence ending and cheering the demise of the aggressor an instigator state.
I confess to feeling uncomfortable when people’s first thought about an attack like this
I confess to feeling uncomfortable every time I open this thread or read anything on social media about Russia/Ukraine. Oh here everything is a Russian 'false flag' operation. On twitter everything is a CIA/Mossad operation. Somewhere in between there are a few of us who just want it all to stop before it destroys us all. 🤷♂️
The terrorism at the Crocus City Hall theatre in Moscow may cause an uptick in recruitment
See what I mean?
Timba, I'm well aware of Bucha and many other atrocities committed by Putin's regime but they weren't commited by the Moscow concert goers and listing them in this context I'm afraid does smack a little of whataboutery.
I feel the same horror, loathing of the perpetrators and empathy for the victims as I do for those in the Crocus theatre attack but they don't cancel each other out on some horrific score sheet.
To be clear, I think your contributions to this thread are generally some of the most thoughtful and informative. I'll bow out for now as I don't want to derail this very useful thread.
But there’s one state and one leader who can put an end to the vast majority of the violence
Imagine if Islamic terrorists murdered hundreds in London and people on here posted that it was within the power of Rishi Sunak and the UK govt to put a stop to it?
Imagine if Islamic terrorists murdered hundreds in London and people on here posted that it was within the power of Rishi Sunak and the UK govt to put a stop to it?
If rishi had retasked the entirety of the nations security infrastructure to invading a neighbour, they'd have a point.
Oh here everything is a Russian ‘false flag’ operation.
On this specific example (domestic terror attack in Russia), Putin does have form for it.
Russia claims to have captured all 4 gunman alive.
That seems both conveniently fast and judging by ISIS fighters' enthusiasm for martyrdom, highly improbable. These attacks generally only end when every attacker has been gunner down.
Whilst they've been slow out of the blocks I suspect we're about to see the predictable 'operation pin in on Ukraine' kick into gear.
See what I mean?
Frankly, no.
Dmitry Medvedev, the ex-president of Russia and now deputy chairman of its security council, wrote that “if it is established that they are terrorists of the Kyiv regime, it’s impossible to treat them and those who inspired them differently.
“They all should be found and relentlessly destroyed as terrorists. Including officials of the state that committed such an evil thing. Death for death.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/22/moscow-concert-hall-shooting-blast
In the face of inflammatory statements from the Deputy Chairman of the Security Council of Russia, former-President and former PM, do you not think that "the terrorism at the Crocus City Hall theatre in Moscow may cause an uptick in recruitment"?
O(n) here everything is a Russian ‘false flag’ operation.
Your self-fulfilling prophecy has come true for you.
Whilst they’ve been slow out of the blocks I suspect we’re about to see the predictable ‘operation pin in on Ukraine’ kick into gear.
As soon as they stated 4 captured I wondered if we’d possibly see 4 unfortunate POWs paraded as the perpetrators.
Given ISIS claim to have been behind the attack it seems to be some front to claim convenient unprovable (caught heading in the direction of) links to Ukraine. As much as it sickens me to think it (100+ civilian casualties), I imagine Putin will milk this for all its worth to justify an escalation in attacks and targets.