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I presume everyone wailing about Russia putting troops into the Donbas will now also be demanding that the uk give Northern Ireland back to the Irish and Israel to pull out of Palestine and Gaza?
*For the record I’m not supportive of Russia taking over the Donbas, I think they should be able to decide for themselves whether to be independent or not. But the double standards on display are pretty funny. As always it’s one rule for us and another for everyone else.
The BBC has a list of bullet points summarising Putin's speech. This one stood out to me as particularly chilling:
He said "Ukraine never had a tradition of genuine statehood" and that modern Ukraine had been "created" by Russia
I’m sure it will be due to NATO aggression, the secular Saint and “Stop the War” will be out to campaign for peace quite soon
Stand aside everyone! They’re already on it! And they really mean business this time. They’ve started a petition! 😂
https://twitter.com/corbyn_project/status/1495821565296058368?s=21
I presume everyone wailing about Russia putting troops into the Donbas will now also be demanding that the uk give Northern Ireland back to the Irish and Israel to pull out of Palestine and Gaza?
And maybe Germany could expand back into Poland and France ?
This one stood out to me as particularly chilling
It went much further than that. I’ll try and find the whole section… because it claimed far more than just Ukraine should still be under Russian control. It talked of Russia taking on the debt of the “newly” independent states, and that in return they are obligated. Genuinely troubling times for people in many countries.
This one stood out to me as particularly chilling:
Seems to be some truth in it. Some quick Googling says the Ukraine was created in 1917 by the bolsheviks. That’s what he said wasn’t it?
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will chair a Cobra emergency response meeting at 06:30 GMT on Tuesday.
That's concerning; he won't be sober so I hope there will be some grown-ups in the room to rein him in.
Liz Truss will be there like some dystopian neo-Thatcherite wet nurse. That'll cheer up the Etonians
'And maybe Germany could expand back into Poland and France ?'
We could give all back to the Romans.
Anne Applebaum from The Atlantic.
It's guff. Putin knows it, we know it, even some of his domestic audience know it.
Prime Minister Boris Johnson will chair a Cobra emergency response meeting at 06:30 GMT on Tuesday.
A comedy prime minister with an incompetent/mendacious cabinet and a party propped up with vast amounts of Russian cash. What could possibly go wrong?
Liz Truss will be there like some dystopian neo-Thatcherite wet nurse
I don't think that she'll ever be that good at her job TBH.
Seems to be some truth in it. Some quick Googling says the Ukraine was created in 1917 by the bolsheviks. That’s what he said wasn’t it?
"Belgium is a country invented by the British to annoy the French" - Charles de Gaulle.
Obviously a bit more to it than that but basically yes.
We could use the Putin logic to solve Brexit🤣
Some quick Googling says the Ukraine was created in 1917 by the bolsheviks.
😂
Some quick Googling…yeah, very quick.
We could use the Putin logic to solve Brexit
Oh the irony lols.
My employer has staff in Kyiv, and some (very good) contractors in Lviv who I work with daily. Just as well this forum has a swear filter.
Thanks, that’s hilarious!
This from the opening paragraphs:
Ralf Stegner, a senior Member of Parliament for Germany’s ruling Social Democrats, told the BBC on January 25th that the Minsk-Normandy process agreed to by France, Germany, Russia and Ukraine in 2015 is still the right framework for ending the civil war.
“The Minsk Agreement hasn’t been applied by both sides,” Stegner explained, “and it just doesn’t make any sense to think that forcing up the military possibilities would make it better. Rather, I think it’s the hour of diplomacy.”
Yeah, the same Minsk agreement that Russia has just put in the bin a few hours ago!
It can’t be the fault of the Russians can it? I mean, those same Russians who decided not to have a bilateral with Biden when it was on the table just this morning. Instead they chose to use the time set aside for the bilateral to invade the sovereign territory of a neighbour. That must be the fault of the Americans?
Western mainstream media accounts date the crisis in Ukraine back to Russia’s 2014 reintegration of Crimea
That's an interesting interpretation.
Of course given the source, hardly surprising, they are ripe for such pieces given their political bias:
During the 2016 presidential election, CounterPunch published a piece attributed to Alice Donovan, who purported to be a freelance writer but US intelligence officials alleged to be a pseudonymous employee of the Russian government. Donovan was tracked by the FBI for nine months, as a suspected fictitious persona created by the GRU. In late November 2017, after CounterPunch had published several more pieces by Donovan, The Washington Post contacted Jeffrey St. Clair about her. The co-editor said that Donovan's pitches did not stand out amongst the pitches that CounterPunch received daily and began making inquiries. He asked Donovan to substantiate her identity by sending a photo of her driving license but she did not. On the same day The Washington Post article was published on Donovan, St. Clair and Frank published a piece stating that CounterPunch only ran one article by Alice Donovan during the 2016 election, which was on cyber-breaches of medical databases. Donovan was also exposed by the newsletter as a serial plagiarizer. CounterPunch removed all of the articles from their site. In a January 2018 follow-up article, St. Clair and Frank exposed a network of alleged trolls that operated a site called Inside Syria Media Center, promoting a pro-Bashar al-Assad and pro-Russian view of the Syrian Civil War. St. Clair and Frank speculated that the website was connected to the same network of trolls as Alice Donovan, which was later confirmed by the Atlantic Council and other researchers.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CounterPunch
Here's a full account of the saga from Counterpunch themselves:
https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/25/go-ask-alice-the-curious-case-of-alice-donovan-2/
What's my point? Don't read things at face value or fall into the trap of confirmation bias. Just because the source is agreeable that doesn't mean you shouldn't question the info given.
Without straying too much into the realms of "history is repeating itself" the similarities to what's going on in Ukraine today and Poland 80 years ago is startling.
In the 1930s Hitler had written that Poland "wasn't worth a penny, and how can they call themselves an independent state?" Then there's Danzig and the separation of ethnically German Poles from the rest of German after the First WW, which Hitler used as the cause to begin drumming for invasion to "liberate" the citizens. The germans even referred to the invasion as a "defensive war" because Hitler claimed that ethnically German Poles were being "persecuted" and "terrorised, and driven from their homes"
Even the endless rounds of talks that preceded it are eerily familiar and divided
Not much to laugh about, but this made me giggle..
nickc
Full Member
Without straying too much into the realms of “history is repeating itself”
I don't think you have to try to hard to find the historic parallel.
Some quick Googling says the Ukraine was created in 1917 by the bolsheviks.
OK, some unpacking, Putin certainly comes at history from an ex-Soviet perspective, and the Ukrainian-Bolshevik War as far as he was probably taught it in the Soviet Republic was that Lenin was coming to the rescue of Russian people after the region was invaded by the military of Central and Western powers, conversely most Ukrainians would characterize the war as a failed war of independence by the Peoples Republic of Ukraine against the Bolsheviks. The decider was I think The Ukrainian army mostly dying of typhus in 1919
In essence the straight-up claim of "Ukraine was invented in 1917" stands up, but not really in the way that Putin wants you to understand it. Yes, it was, by a group of people that didn't really want anything to do with Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but lost a war to try to stop them invading. Again like Poland, the echos of history are surprisingly familiar.
In the 1930s Hitler had written that Poland “wasn’t worth a penny, and how can they call themselves an independent state?” Then there’s Danzig and the separation of ethnically German Poles from the rest of German after the First WW, which Hitler used as the cause to begin drumming for invasion to “liberate” the citizens. The germans even referred to the invasion as a “defensive war” because Hitler claimed that ethnically German Poles were being “persecuted” and “terrorised, and driven from their homes”
Plus you have the parallel of Hitler rolling into the Sudetenland, a region of another country but with a population of mainly ethnic Germans. Whether Putin will be appeased in the same way as Hitler at this point remains to be seen.
I think the most severe and targeted seizure sanctions against privately-held Russian assets in Europe is the only possible recourse that our governments have at this point. Obviously, that will upset some Tory party donors.
“I think the most severe and targeted seizure sanctions against privately-held Russian assets in Europe is the only possible recourse that our governments have at this point. “
There are plenty of other tools in the box but it’s worth mentioning that the issue or oligarch cash isn’t unique to the Uk - it’s an issue in France, Germany and Spain as well.
The other measures we could deploy include:
- terminating the access of Russian banks to the swift / international payments network (which would pretty much guarantee the collapse of the Russian economy)
- legislating to prevent western companies from trading with Russian legal entities either in Russia or the new “independent states”
- travel bans
- refusal to allow inbound flights from Russian points of departure - although Russia would reciprocate by refusing access to their airspace for international flights.
Yeah, just goes to show how brainless it is to trawl through history looking for evidence for where people and territories should 'rightly' belong. What a load of ****ing bollocks. That really worked out well last time didn't it?
Putin, on reading about WWII: That sounds great fun, I want a go!
Ukraine was invented in 1917
You could claim that Finland was 'invented' in 1917 too but it'd be pretty inaccurate from a historical perspective.
which would pretty much guarantee the collapse of the Russian economy
And give the Russian people a genuine grievance surely?
And give the Russian people a genuine grievance surely?
I guess the hope is that the Russian people understand that the sanctions are a result of their leader choosing to invade Ukraine, might not be the case due to the controlled media however.
IIRC a lot of the proposed sanctions are on leaders and people close to Putin, so they don't hurt the Russian people so much but hopefully influence Putin.
You could claim that Finland was ‘invented’ in 1917 too but it’d be pretty inaccurate from a historical perspective.
We all know Finland doesn't exist at all!
I think the most severe and targeted seizure sanctions against privately-held Russian assets in Europe is the only possible recourse that our governments have at this point.
You think that will happen? I think it's pretty much guaranteed that despite all the tough talk and breast beating, this will be right at the bottom of the list of actions that will be taken. The west is addicted to dirty russian money, and they wonder why Russia then feels empowered to do what it likes?
EEK! Its a good job there haven't been any increase in gas prices recently, as this should send them through the roof
Oh... erm...
https://twitter.com/AP/status/1496080150085177344?s=20&t=ENZSTLzu9DL0iUrnsYpj5Q
The west is addicted to dirty russian money, and they wonder why Russia then feels empowered to do what it likes?
The West? Or just the UK? There was a guy on radio 4 this morning saying that the entire financial system in The City has been geared to laundering dirty Russain money for 3 decades now, so short of changing the entire system theres not much you can do, even if there were any will to do so, which there obviously isn't
I heard Caroline Lucas talking about Russian money in the Conservative party, Labour really should go hard after this.
As should the media.
The West? Or just the UK?
Well certainly the UK. Probably most of the main EU states too. The US has enough dirty money from South and Central American drug cartels and middle eastern oil so I guess they've managed to stay clear of the oligarchs.
I guess the hope is that the Russian people understand that the sanctions are a result of their leader choosing to invade Ukraine, might not be the case due to the controlled media however.
Not a chance in hell. Convincing them it's unfair would be Putin's easiest job by far. If they already think Russian actions are justified then they'll jump to that conclusion on their own. Have you ever had any dealings with.. people, before?
Probably most of the main EU states too.
...and you're basing that statement on what, exactly?
Convincing them it’s unfair would be Putin’s easiest job by far.
Well, we have many in the UK pushing the line that it is Russia under threat, not the ex-USSR independent countries that border it... so if people can be convinced of that outside Russia, it should be a very easy sell inside Russia (apart from in "New Russia", if they have to experience first hand what an expanding RF means for them directly).
…and you’re basing that statement on what, exactly?
Germany and France are normally implicated in sheltering money connected to Putin. Not on the same scale us the UK though.
Probably most of the main EU states too.
The flow of Russian money into Germany makes the levels of "investments" in London pale by comparison. east German banks were favorites for Soviet era party apparatchiks to hide money, so there's a already a recognised path for money you don't want traced, thousands of Russians emigrated to Germany in the 1990s and it went all the way the Schroder who worked for Gazprom and then Rosneft
IIRC a lot of the proposed sanctions are on leaders and people close to Putin, so they don’t hurt the Russian people so much but hopefully influence Putin.
Don't hurt the Russian people, directly...
The thing is such things do tend to trickledown, but the time it takes for normal Russians to see their own quality of life degrade to the point that they become unhappy enough to try and unseat Putin and his cronies will be long after Ukraine has been taken over completely.
I don't disagree that Significant and lasting sanctions need to be imposed swiftly, and it goes well beyond Ukraine; The Russian "criminal Elite" need to stop laundering their ill-gotten gains though the UK, and be prevented from meddling in our domestic politics.
The main goal of these sanctions now needs to be, to create enough unrest amongst the Oligarchs that they basically lynch Putin. You only get somewhere by ****ing with the wealthy Russians, not the Proles.
I really don't know how achievable such an aim would really be right now...
This isn't just about making NATO look weak, it's about showing a threat to the rest of Eastern Europe and the EU, making it clear they can't rely on the west to protect their sovereignty or integrity as well as scoring "Strong Man" points domestically for Putin..
EEK! Its a good job there haven’t been any increase in gas prices recently, as this should send them through the roofOh… erm…
Europe has been outbidding pretty much everyone for LNG for a few months now, I'll try and dig the FT article out for you.
Some ships from the US have made it as far as India then changed customers and sailed to Europe.
Not going to make things cheaper but there seems to have been some expectation that supply issues from Russia would occur.
Edit https://www.ft.com/content/4885b7f5-97a2-4e66-af91-a9211956b0f5
Obviously seems like not enough to meet demand.
Did someone mention fracking.......?
It would appear that none of the sanctioned banks are in the top 10 russian banks.
While we wait, russian banks and oligarchs will continue re-locating assets to minimise the impact of further sanctions.
It would appear that none of the sanctioned banks are in the top 10 russian banks
They need to be targeted: Rossiya Bank will be top of the list
The sanctions are underwhelming - individuals already under US sanctions, and some smaller banks.