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Do you ignore what they’ve done just becasue they’re fascists?
The term "far-right" is now used to describe politicians and their supporters who are racist and anti-immigration, it has little if anything at all to do economics now.
The term is used to describe the racist views of those across the globe, including the UK, France, Italy, and the US.
The Italian far-right are so-called because of their racist immigration policies. So to answer your question, yes absolutely their views on how to deal with asylum seekers and immigration should be totally ignored, in the same way that Nigel Farage's views on the issues should also be totally ignored.
If Starmer wanted to have a chat with the far-right Italian government about improving bilateral trade that would be a complete different issue but that is not what we are talking about here. He wants to talk to them about their policies which are steeped in racism.
And the idea that a bunch of far-right racists might have "stumbled" on a solution to the the problem of asylum seekers, which we cannot understand unless we talk to them and get them to reveal their secrets, is ludicrous.
There is no need to talk to them about asylum/immigration issues and doing so simply gives public credibility to far-right racist policies. The signal it sends is that if Italy has solved the issue of asylum seekers by voting far-right then perhaps UK voters could also try the same thing.
It is a shame that Starmer doesn't appear to feel the same revulsion towards foreign far-right politicians as he apparently feels towards British left-wing politicians.
The signal it sends is that if Italy has solved the issue of asylum seekers by voting far-right then perhaps UK voters could also try the same thing.
It's a leap of imagination, to suggest that Starmer just speaking with Meloni will encourage UK voters to vote for the far right. Given that its taken Farage what? 8 attempts to even get elected to Parliament, let alone anywhere near the levers of power. So if he goes for talks to China about trade under the same logic you think that folks will want to vote for a authoritarian Communist revolutionary?
Hey Siri show me a leap of imagination
"Starmer is going to look at what Italy is doing with a different mindset that Sunak isn’t he."
Starmer only got 33% of the vote, the lowest winning vote share in 100 years. Hard to imagine this will rise with 5 years of austerity. If the right get even half-way close to sorting themselves out, it's hardly debatable who will win.
And there's a fair few folk all desperate to be the first to shout "we told you so"
I guess the longer form answer is: Do you ignore what they’ve done just becasue they’re fascists?
Well, yes when we are looking specifically at policies which are fascist in nature.
So looking at their public transport system it might be reasonable to listen and learn from them.
However when it comes to their immigration policy then yes it is reasonable to ignore what they did or rather listen to the UK experts who have already ruled it out.
Should we be applying the same sort of laws to the RNLI as have been applied to S&R in Italy for example?
And there’s a fair few folk all desperate to be the first to shout “we told you so”
Yeah I know. Some people are already lining up to say it will be the fault of the left.
Should Starmer be discussing with Nigel Farage how the UK should tackle the issue of asylum seekers? After all lots of people “voted” for his far-right racist party, and that apparently is a game changer which you have to respect.
As a member of parliament that's pretty much a given, we are part of a democracy.
Yeah I know. Some people are already lining up to say it will be the fault of the left.
Who is this 'left' that will be blamed, left of what?
It’s a leap of imagination, to suggest that Starmer just speaking with Meloni will encourage UK voters to vote for the far right.
No not just "speaking", I made that quite clear.
I specifically said just speaking to a far-right government wasn't the problem, it was the suggestion that he was interested in their asylum/immigration policies.
If the far-right might have the solutions to asylum/small boats issues in Italy, as Starmer seems to think, it is not a huge leap of imagination to assume that some UK voters might take a similar attitude that far-right policies are also appropriate for the UK
You don't need a huge amount of imagination to figure out that the UK Prime Minister asking for advice on asylum/small boats issues from far-right politicians will be music to the ears of Nigel Farage's.
It sounds like a very early Christmas present for Nigel Farage. And it follows Starmer's refusal to publicly condemn Farage for his blatant misinformation and stoking up of the far-right anti-asylum seekers riots. Farage owes him big time.
Who is this ‘left’ that will be blamed, left of what?
I did wonder if that would trigger one of the true believers into a kneejerk reaction. Should have guessed it would be you. You might want to aim that at MoreCashThanDash who was ranting about those lefties who dare to criticise the dear leader.
looking at their public transport system it might be reasonable to listen and learn from them.
Indeed, those fascists are renowned for it.
Based on a myth of course.
I did wonder who would be unable to resist...
Unable to resist dissonance's sarcastic and obvious comment ?
Yes I did too.
And there’s a fair few folk all desperate to be the first to shout “we told you so."
Hey - Starmer didn't have to make all these Johnson-level decisions.
As for I told you so - well there were plenty of warning signs but even I didn't think he'd make such a string of decisions that had he been a Tory would have set fire to these very pages.
Yep, I never had much faith in Starmer but went along with the 'can't be worse then the tories' and had some hope he may get a bit better once in power. Turns out he is just getting worse and worse and those apologists who are continuing to back him are pretty similar to Trump supporters.
As Dazh said, with so many Labour MPs I would hope the majority are already pretty fed up with the shit he is coming out with and would be a very easy no confidence vote getting rid of Starmer (and Reeves) and still having 4.5 years to do better.
I'd imagine the budget is going to be the watershed.
God only knows what they're going to do but if there's one thing for sure they don't seem like apologists for such reckless behaviour.
How dare they take the hope and faith of million of voters and squander it? Well apparently that's exactly what they've done - barely anyone will vote Labour ever again if they don't make some serious U-ies.
Centrism tries to set itself apart from left and right but ends up making an absolute hash of everything. As I saw yesterday today - Centrism is balance in its need to attack the left and defend the right. It ends up being the least pragmatic of political decision making and clumsy in its planning and understanding of the economy. It's one big spreadsheet full of massive errors.
Everyone I know who voted Labour around me is now saying look they're all the same. Annoying both Tory and Labour supporters is an absolute home goal.
They've been let down hugely.
There's still time of course. Eyes on the budget but I fear it will be a disaster if Reeves keeps on with the book balancing antics.
The only hope I can see is they redress the idea of what constitutes debt and remove the BoE 'owned' debt from the balance sheet. Giving them a large 500bn or so expansion for debt/GDP rules they saddled themselves with.
Private debt is getting out of control too - more evidence the government deficit is not large enough. We really don't want to increase private debt. I think we will get some house price inflation at some point and this will be considered the success of growth by the Labour party.
But then Italy has reduce small boat crossing in the Med by 60% by letting people drown, so should the PM who’s made that part of his election strategy not talk to people who’ve manged to do what he wants to achieve himself?
FTFY.
If I was doing the asking in the hope that maybe there's a grain of something morally better in their whole strategy, I would be getting junior ministers and civil servants to do it, not gifting fascists a photo op.
It is not simply letting people drown at sea, the huge reduction has been achieved by paying thugs, who then go on to rape, torture, and generally abuse desperate refugees, to stop them. They are far-right fascists after all.
Since it was signed in 2017, the financial and technical support Italy provides to Libyan authorities has been key in facilitating the interception of thousands of people crossing the Mediterranean Sea to reach Italy, forcing them back to Libya. There, migrants faced “murder, enforced disappearance, torture, enslavement, sexual violence, rape, and other inhumane acts … in connection with their arbitrary detention”, according to a June 2022 report by the UN Independent Fact-Finding Mission on Libya.
In September 2022, the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (ICC) said in a statement that according to his office’s preliminary assessment, crimes against migrants in Libya “may constitute crimes against humanity and war crimes.”
Yet the Italian government keeps providing significant support to Libyan authorities despite these findings, countless reports by international human rights organisations, and repeated recommendations to suspend assistance, including by the UN Secretary-General, the Council of Europe’s Commissioner for Human Rights, and Italian civil society. On January 28, 2023, Italian Prime Minister Meloni visited Libya to sign a major gas deal with the country and declared that Italy will provide the Libyan Coast Guard with five “fully equipped boats”.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/02/01/italy-reups-funding-force-migrants-back-libya
People keep touting out the Italian government's deal with Albania as something which the UK government should be interested in and yet that has absolutely nothing to do with any reduction in people applying for asylum as it hasn't even kicked in yet.
I reckon the most shocking aspect about all this, despite it being so predictable, isn't Prime Minister Starmer talking to far-right fascists about how to deal with asylum seekers, we all know that he has a very malleable set of morals to suit a variety of situations , it is that the very people on here who would have been absolutely outraged if Rishi Sunak or Suella Braverman had publicly announced that they wanted to talk far-right fascists about asylum seekers are now mostly silent or emphasising the supposedly pragmatic angle of it all.
It really is a new level of hypocrisy.
I wait in expectation for their justification of Starmer getting chummy with Viktor Orban next.
The correct way to deal with fascists is to wherever possible isolate them, not to embrace them. It is as true now as it was a hundred years ago.
is that the very people on here who would have been absolutely outraged if Rishi Sunak or Suella Braverman had publicly announced that they wanted to talk far-right fascists about asylum seekers are now mostly silent or emphasising the supposedly pragmatic angle of it all.
It beggars belief that folk can't give stick to the Tories and Labour for similar trajectories.
But then Keir and Vic both need financial help with their clothes to look good on the world stage.
Can you imagine if the Tories took bribes 😉
Lammy justifying this one is as good as comedy gold I've seen all year.
It's the football team approach to politics
Labour = "my team" = good
Tories = "their team" = bad
Regardless of what they actually say and do.
need financial help with their clothes to look good on the world stage.
There appears to be growing evidence that the main differences between the Tories and the Centrists is presentation rather than substance, so looking great is obviously very important.
I am not sure that financial support for their wardrobes is important though, just think how badly dressed Rishi Sunak looks despite being the wealthiest MP in Parliament. I frankly don't understand how anyone could have voted for him.... shocking!
There appears to be growing evidence that the main differences between the Tories and the Centrists is presentation rather than substance, so looking great is obviously very important.
Fanatical centrists you mean!
Fwiw I don't think Starmer is "just as bad as the tories". But he's far too close for my taste and it's obvious from the election result (let alone subsequent opinion polls) that he's disappointed a huge swathe of voters on the left of the party in his determination to chase those on the right.
I wonder if the “junior” doctors are following this entirely predictable “they’re all the same” narrative?
As for meeting and talking with world leaders that they, you, and we would never vote for… of course the government will be doing that… you’re going to lose your minds if Trump wins (let’s hope he doesn’t)… the UK government won’t be cold shouldering the USA any time soon.
you’re going to lose your minds if Trump wins (let’s hope he doesn’t)… the UK government won’t be cold shouldering the USA any time soon.
And what lessons do you expect Starmer to learn from Trump?
So far he's learned from Meloni that a good way to discourage people in boats is to hire thugs to rape and torture them before they enter your territorial waters.
I'm sure Trump has some great lessons as well.
Thanks for that link dissonance. The linked articles are worth a quick scan as well. As ever with that stuff, it’s hard to tell when “capitulation” genuinely helps the rise of the far right in these circumstances, or if it’s just the democratic effect of the rise of the far right… which is cause, which is effect? Like “Brexit” here: Labour promising no return to freedom of movement… is that a capitulation to those pushing the anti-immigrant stance like Farage and the worst of the Tories, or the result of past votes and “listening” to the public who have been voting for parties pushing anti-immigrant rhetoric, and how they voted in that damn referendum.
So far he’s learned from Meloni that a good way to discourage people in boats is to hire thugs to rape and torture them before they enter your territorial waters.
FFS Bruce.
FFS Bruce. I’ll come back when there’s some actual discussion here.
Yeah, I can see why you'd want to stay away when we're discussing this. This is what Starmer has been learning from Meloni.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/02/01/italy-reups-funding-force-migrants-back-libya
I’m aware of the hideousness of her party, and what Italy has been doing. If you’re going to try and taint a UK government with the actions of every foreign state that they talk to and try to work with, then you’ve got your work cut out. The list will be long. Dealing with international crime networks will require cooperation… with governments we don’t elect.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy5yy13ng33o
Junior doctors in England have accepted the government’s offer of a 22% pay rise over two years, ending their long-running dispute.
Dealing with international crime networks will require cooperation… with governments we don’t elect.
Perhaps they should have been more explicit when they said how they were going to tackle irregular migration upstream.
The thing is, employing thugs to capture asylum seekers before they get to international waters is also 'tackling the problem upstream.' Did Starmer or anyone else explicitly say this £4million was not just going to go towards hiring more of these scumbags?
Starmer said learning from the Italians on Monday marked “a return to British pragmatism”, and said the “remarkable progress” Meloni had made in reducing the number of illegal migrants was down to her “upstream work that tackles the issue at its source”.
The stated reasons given by the Labour Party and the Italian far-right for stopping asylum seekers in small boats are very different.
So I cannot see how the solutions could possibly be similar.
The Labour Party claims that it wants to stop small boats arrivals because the sea crossing is extremely dangerous and innocent lives, often children's, are regularly lost. Plus callous thugs are exploiting desperate refugees. The Labour Party claims to want asylum seekers to follow safe and legal routes.
In contrast the racist Italian far-right don't want them to arrive full-stop.They consider them to be lesser humans because they are of a different race and from non-Christian cultures. They don't care if desperate people, including children, drown at sea (think of Nigel Farage moaning that the RNLI is saving refugees from drowning)
And far from caring about callous thugs exploiting desperate refugees Italian fascists are giving them huge amounts of money so that they can rape, torture, and generally abuse them.
It is quite astonishing that considering past threads on stw dealing with Suella Braverman, Nigel Farage, 30p Lee, Priti Patel, etc, that the case has to be made that the far-right can never provide the answers to asylum seeker issues.
Kelvin - no one believes for a moment that you would not be strongly condemning Rishi Sunak if he was still PM and he was asking the Italian far-right for advice on how to deal with asylum seekers arriving on small boats.
I understand now why you have been so relaxed with Starmer's ever changing moral positions, you seem to personally follow the same moral acrobatics with remarkable ease.
I am not sure that financial support for their wardrobes is important though, just think how badly dressed Rishi Sunak looks despite being the wealthiest MP in Parliament. I frankly don’t understand how anyone could have voted for him…. shocking!
Yeah cat's died and everything but I bet his suits weren't from Primark.
Angela Eagle keeps popping up to defend various recent Labour shenanigans. My god she's bad. She's always been terrible and should be nowhere near a microphone connected to a recording device.
Interesting article by Gordon Brown today about the so-called moderates and their flirtation with the hard right.
I'm finding the timing of that article fascinating.
I'm not sure this galavanting abroad is actually that productive for a country that could solve many of its problems starting on its doorstep.
I mean - our Rach, goes playing trans-atlantic trickle-down with Jamie Dimon without noticing she's pretty much in charge of one of the most powerful central banks on earth.
I understand now why you have been so relaxed with Starmer’s ever changing moral positions, you seem to personally follow the same moral acrobatics with remarkable ease.
Making it personal again? Rightio.
I’m not sure this galavanting abroad is actually that productive for a country that could solve many of its problems starting on its doorstep
How’s the Lexit fantasy working out? We need to work with other countries, be it trade, the green energy transition, defence, people smuggling, vaccines…
Twitter doesn’t embed on this forum so….
From Dr Dan Goyal
Starmer accepting clothes from a donor may not seem like much, but it’s a symptom of a much more concerning disease….a disease that will affect whether or not our NHS will get back to delivering world-class care. It’s time to reform parliamentary rules!
My rant:
https://twitter.com/danielgoyal/status/1835652944252793069?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
From Mark Seddon
While working for the National Union of Tailors & Garment Workers, Jeremy Corbyn was offered a suit for free but turned it down at it could be a ‘conflict of interest’. One, here, has real class (& graced the cover of GQ).
https://twitter.com/markseddon1962/status/1835626889274098149?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg
No conflict in interest taking millions from the unions though.....
It's a total non story being touted by the Torys and the Left, strange bed fellows indeed but it's all they have.
Making it personal again? Rightio.
I find your support for the UK government seeking advice from far-right racists on how best to deal with asylum seekers arriving on small boats quite astonishing. You don't think that I should?
You think you should post on here that it is fine to talk about asylum issues to far-right fascists without anyone daring to criticise you?
After all your relentless attacks on the likes of Nigel Farage, Suella Braverman, and 30p Lee, you suddenly decide that far-right racists might have something worthwhile to say about asylum seekers after all?
If anyone had dared to suggest such a thing pre-July 4th on stw you would have been in the front of the queue to criticise them and accuse them of being trolls, which appears to be one of your preferred insults.
I abhor racism and fascism, I am not going to water down my opposition to it simply because we have an alleged Labour government.
Such drama. We elect our government. Other nations choose theirs. We work with them. The UK needs to work with other countries on many key issues, we are not a bubble. Those smuggling people across continents work across borders, and our government should seek to do the same. And that absolutely requires working with people all around the med, including Italy, Syria & Turkey, despite who is in government there.