[Closed] Tsvangirai loses some of his liberal glamour...

Anti-homosexuality is [i]very[/i] widespread in Africa ........ as it was until quite recently in Europe.

Certainly in my lifetime it has been a crime to be homosexual in Britain - until a Labour government de-criminalised it.

And it's even much more recent since the police and authorities in Britain have taken anti-homosexual hate crimes seriously.

All that article shows is that Africa is where we were, 50 or so years ago.

And I'm not sure whether you can question pre-1967 UK governments "liberal" credentials on that basis.

What ernie said.

Thanks for the history lesson, ernie, I'd never have known.

And I'm not sure whether you can question pre-1967 UK governments "liberal" credentials on that basis.

Me neither, though I don't quite see what that's got to do with it.

All that article shows is that Africa is where we were, 50 or so years ago.

Actually, I thought it showed that Morgan T. is not completely the knight in shining armour the western media had built him up to be. Which is not to say that he wouldn't be an improvement on Mugg a bee. Probably. I suppose.

"Women make up 52% of the population... There are more women than men, so why should men be proposing to men?"

Er, because they're... gay, perhaps?

God grief.

Thanks for the history lesson, ernie

You're welcome mate ............I could see that you were struggling.

Anti-homosexuality is very widespread in Africa ........ as it was until quite recently in Europe.

ReeeEEEAAAaally? Gosh...

Another victim of the Wrath of Woppit, is anyone safe?

"Women make up 52% of the population... There are more women than men, so why should men be proposing to men?"

This is literally the best quote ever he manages to not just insult homosexuals but also women by suggesting they should just be waiting for men to propose to them.

And also what is even more bizarre is he seems to suggest that if there were not enough women it would then be natural for men to become gay !!!

crikey - Member
Another victim of the Wrath of Woppit, is anyone safe?

It's the phase of the moon. He'll be fine next week.

Another victim of the Wrath of Woppit, is anyone safe?

Actually crikey looks like Ernie got the better of Wop

yeti guy - Member

Another victim of the Wrath of Woppit, is anyone safe?

Actually crikey looks like Ernie got the better of Wop

Yes, sad me... unlike ernie, I wasn't clever enough to attend the "University of Stating The Bleeding Obvious"...

You are what you drink, and on current form I suspect you'll be wanting a bitter?

Manchester’s chief of police, James Anderton, spoke of ‘homosexuals swirling in a cesspit of their own creation’, and the tabloids called for gay men to be rounded up and quarantined somewhere. Then Margaret Thatcher went to war on local councils and Clause 28 – proscribing ‘promoting the teaching of the acceptability of homosexuality’ – reared its head. Between them, AIDS and Clause 28 (later Section 28) made homosexuality more visible and gay men and women more angry than ever before. Numbers at Gay Pride swelled. A group of lesbians abseiled into the House of Lords, and stormed ‘The Six O’Clock News’, chaining themselves to Sue Lawley’s desk and prompting her classic comment: ‘I’m sorry, we do rather seem to have been invaded.’ The age of queer activism was upon us.

Not my words, Things have turned for the better in some places, Manchester being one place,sadly people still hold entrenched views.

But time alters peoples perception for the future.

Actually crikey looks like Ernie got the better of Wop

No big deal. He was in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

No big deal. He was in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

deadlydarcy - Member

No big deal. He was in a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Oh superb! I really must remember that one.

Yeah, me too. It'll come in handy when I've got nothing to say, either...

Yes Project, Manchester is a very haven of entrenchedness with gayness on the rise as we sit in our comfortable homes awaiting the inevitable tsunami.

Plonker.

You're a bit grumpy today Mr Woppit, are you well?

Are'nt these sort of threads started by folk that want to have a bit of a post-imperial gloat at problems in Britains former colonies?
"oh look , old chap, see what happens to the bloody **** now they've got their independence!"
Maybe its not that reasoned or cynical, but I suspect that's what's behind it.

Since when did Tsvangirai have any liberal glamour?

It's pretty clear that a significant portion of the general population of Zimbabwe agree with the views quoted in the news article, R4 was reporting on this the other night and I don't think they found one African who thought that legitimising/recognising homosexuality was a good thing, even if he was a liberal he's hardly likely to stand up and try to change those views whilst he hanging on for dear life in a 'power sharing' government with Mugabe is he?

Yeah, me too. It'll come in handy when I've got nothing to say, either...

I was merely commenting on the quality of that line, not in direct reference to you. You've pissed off enough people here in the last few days, no need to keep adding to the list.

No. I'm just disappointed that Tsvangirai has turned out to be yet another ignorant minority-bashing knob in the mould of Mugabe and his predecessor, Smith, that's all.

"The ancestors would turn in their graves"... oh, yaaaawn.

Mine's a pint of Four X. Ta.

deadlydarcy - Member

Yeah, me too. It'll come in handy when I've got nothing to say, either...

I was merely commenting on the quality of that line, not in direct reference to you. You've pissed off enough people here in the last few days, no need to keep adding to the list.

Just at the moment, I have no interest in what you are saying. At all.

Sorry.

Nick - Member

Since when did Tsvangirai have any liberal glamour?

It's pretty clear that a significant portion of the general population of Zimbabwe agree with the views quoted in the news article, R4 was reporting on this the other night and I don't think they found one African who thought that legitimising/recognising homosexuality was a good thing, even if he was a liberal he's hardly likely to stand up and try to change those views whilst he hanging on for dear life in a 'power sharing' government with Mugabe is he?

Quite so. I agree. I suppose I had set my expectations just a tad too high.

Silly me, eh?

You think he should be more like Jesus then?

Oooh hush my mouth..

Ok, ok, biting...

It's not gone well for you the last few days Woppit has it...
Destroyed by molgrips on the religion thread...and in a few posts on this one, by ernie.

As you yourself are fond of saying...must try harder (as should I to resist casual insults from the likes of you, but I don't like to see people being meanies on the forum).

crikey - Member

You think he should be more like Jesus then?

😆

Sorry, double post....

But come on, lighten up a but eh?

" another minority-bashing knob"?
weren't you defending Netanyahu the other day?
I'd be surprised if he likes gay folk any more than Palestinians.

Just at the moment, I have no interest in what you are saying. At all.

FFS Woppit..........get some help.

all that anger and bitterness churning inside you .... life can't be much fun

deadlydarcy - Member

Ok, ok, biting...

It's not gone well for you the last few days Woppit has it...
Destroyed by molgrips on the religion thread...and in a few posts on this one, by ernie.

As you yourself are fond of saying...must try harder (as should I to resist casual insults from the likes of you, but I don't like to see people being meanies on the forum).

"Hasn't gone well" for me? I thought it was really engrossing and very interesting, if you're talking about the "Church scandal thread"... I've no idea what you mean by that. Some people agreed with me, some people didn't and got, sadly, a bit upset. One had a personality implosion, which was bizarre but there you go. I really enjoyed the whole thing and found it food for thought. What ARE you on about?

"Destroyed by molgrips" - nope, missed that one too. I recall he raised a lot of points I'd already rebutted in a few previous posts from others, so I had to decline his offer of another strings of responses because the discussion had moved on. But, if that's "being detroyed" to you, then O.K. I'm sure you think you're right. Whatever.

"Must try harder". Often used by many others on this forum and once by me. I've never seen it's use criticised before, so in a way, I suppose I've acheived a first where others have failed.

I fail to see how presenting a list of obvious general knowledge points in response to my opening link is "destroying" me, but again, if it makes you feel better, be my guest.

west kipper - Member

" another minority-bashing knob"?
weren't you defending Netanyahu the other day?

It's really amazing how misquotation keeps getting used on this forum to support arguments. I think the befuddlement virus is running rampant in STW websiteland. It kept happening during the "church scandal" thread too. Very odd.

No, I was not defending Netanyahoo. Were DID you get that idea?

I almost typed "must do better" but apparently when I do it, it's not acceptable. Oh well. Poor me.

You are coming across as an angry, argumentative and unhappy person. I was in the past, and it didn't end well...

crikey - Member

You are coming across as an angry, argumentative and unhappy person. I was in the past, and it didn't end well...

I think this perception is entirely due to a sort of transferrance, or wish fulfillment. I'm simply rebutting attacks made by people who either misquote me or refer to exchanges in a way that I don't recognise - "destroy", for example. It's an attempt at clarity.

Anyway - do tell. What happened?

Another time, perhaps. Take it easy fella

O.K. Bye.

... for now... 😈

Smugness and innocence indeed. So it wasn't the bigotted and prejudiced colonialism and missionaries that have left a long lasting idea of the supposed 'hetrosexual norm'?

And the alternative to oppo is going to be different? Right or wrong liberalism will have a different meaning in diffrent countries. And I can assure you right now for Zimbabweans the No1 priority is the removal of Mugabe. After that a stable democracy can look at equality for all once everyone can have a voice.

So it wasn't the bigotted and prejudiced colonialism and missionaries that have left a long lasting idea of the supposed 'hetrosexual norm'?

[url= http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:nRWtJei_2tEJ:www.talkzimbabwe.com/zanu-pf-proposes-two-five-year-terms-for-president-cms-75+%22Male+homosexuality+is+illegal+in+Zimbabwe,+under+laws+which+date+to+the+Rhodesian+and+British+colonial+eras%22&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=firefox-a ]Male homosexuality is illegal in Zimbabwe, under laws which date to the Rhodesian and British colonial eras[/url]

On reflection, I suppose I was a bit harsh on him. Thinking about all the shit he put up with to get where he is and the fact that his attitude is representative of his culture.

Things can only get better, eh? (Cue a smiley programme about the wonders of the solar system...).

I think that gay 'rights' quite rightly should be well down his 'issues' list, when just staying alive is probably a current concern along with how to get his country out of the mess.

[i]It's pretty clear that a significant portion of the general population of Zimbabwe agree with the views quoted in the news article, R4 was reporting on this the other night and I don't think they found one African who thought that legitimising/recognising homosexuality was a good thing[/i]

And I think you'll find if you did an equivilent poll in the UK, it would be a significant portion too 😉

And I think you'll find if you did an equivilent poll in the UK, it would be a significant portion too

Quite.

I think that gay 'rights' quite rightly should be well down his 'issues' list, when just staying alive is probably a current concern along with how to get his country out of the mess.

Hmm. Whereas in the West, a cynic might say, it's easier to support gay rights than to tackle fundamental problems such as the wealth divide, sunk estates and a growing proportion of disenfranchised, oh how did Marx put it? The lumpen proletariat? Politics made easy. A bit like wringing hands over an imperialist past whilst washing hands of the present.

Mind you, who'd be so cynical as to say such a thing?

I suppose I was a bit harsh on him.

Well I wouldn't be [i]too[/i] tolerant of him. Homophobia in Africa is as every bit as unacceptable as it was in Britain in the 1960s. And Mugabe's attacks on gay men is one of the most despicable characters of the Zimbabwean government.

I reckon it's important though, to consider a couple reasons which probably contribute to why Africa is lagging behind in accepting gay rights. Firstly Aids.

I remember when the threat from Aids first hit the tabloid front pages. People throughout the Western World were whipped into a hysteria about this new killer disease which was spread by gay men. Aids sufferers were being identified and people demanded that they be moved out of their localities. Just being gay meant people considered you to be a threat and there was a widespread rise in homophobia.

However gradually, as a result of information campaigns, good communications, education, modern medicine, and that iconic picture of Princess Diana firmly shaking the hand of a gay Aids sufferer, the public perception of the Aids threat changed - and a much greater tolerance of gay lifestyles resumed.

Africa where Aids (probably) originated on the other hand, has suffered much more from Aids, due to a lack of education, medicine, poverty, and poor communications. Although Aids is widespread in the heterosexual populations, it is still more prevalent amongst homosexual men. I have little doubt that if the 'Aids issue' was not there, there would be a much greater acceptance of homosexuality in Africa.

The other major difference between Africa and the Western World which undoubtedly contributes to Africa lagging behind in recognising gay rights, is just straight forward 'education'. Education greatly contributes in helping people understand other people.

But fear not Woppit, things are changing in Africa. As you know, gay rights, a subject which I note from your recent posts is close to your heart, is historically most championed by left-wing progressive movements - in the face of stiff resistance from right-wing reactionary ones. And the ANC in South Africa provides the promise of a better future for many gay men in the African continent.

Let me give a little history lesson ........... which I know you enjoy so much.

In 1887 under British rule, sodomy became illegal in South Africa. In 1957 the right-wing reactionary Apartheid Regime made it illegal "for men to engage in any sort of erotic contact in situations where more than two people were present". In 1994 the Apartheid Regime finally collapsed, the ANC came to power, and the laws were repealed.

In 1996 (under ANC rule) South Africa became the first country in the world to provide lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people, protection under its' constitution.

Then in 2006, despite the fact that homophobia had once been very widespread within the ANC, South Africa became the first country in Africa, and the fifth in the world, to legalise same-sex marriages.

Something which that beacon of freedom, liberal tolerance, and democracy, the United States, has yet to achieve.......and something which it bans under the "Defense of Marriage Act".

In some areas at least, Africa leads the way on gay rights over the West.

Just at the moment, I have no interest in what you are saying. At all.

Sorry.

Meanwhile, someone else said that Netanyahu probably doesn't like gays any more than he likes Palestinians. Actually, Israel's not such a bad place to be gay (relatively speaking, and certainly in comparison to other countries in the region - there are supposedly a few gay Palestinians and other Arab refugees in Israel) and Netanyahu dropped by an LBGT club that had been attacked by bigots and criticised Iranian and other countries' bigotry in the UN: http://www.gaypatriot.net/2009/09/25/in-un-speech-netanyahu-condemns-iran-for-subjugation-of-gays/ He is still, of course, a gigantic tosser.