As someone who wants us to switch from hydrocarbons even quicker than net zero requires (really, why wait, why transition slowly, do it NOW, especially in counties with modern economies like ours)… I found this stunt childish and completely lacking anything that would convince anyone of the argument being made. It just looks self indulgent, pointless and detached from society.
Left wing protesters at it again. Protesting without really knowing what they're doing. Just doing it because they think its fashionable.
It just looks self indulgent, pointless and detached from society.
Its odd because the basic premise does make some sense.
They target Stonehenge and the various paintings etc on the ground that they are priceless unique objects and then carry that across to the damage being done to the priceless unique Earth but it doesnt quite work.
Has it been cleaned off already? I would love to know how. With water? Brushes and hoses? That's got to be MUCH more damaging than blowing cornstarch at them with compressed air. Can we have some outrage and arrests please?
It's like an inverted reflection of the actions that need to be taken. You just have to look at the attitudes toward them that are on display in the media. How do you get from there, to where they are? Their willingness to put themselves in the position of taking the unpopular action is the same willingness everybody needs to have to tackle climate change.
The strategy can only be to keep on doing these things, to slowly chip away at the ignorant in the (likely vain) hope it might sow some seeds of doubt about climate denial. Perhaps.
I don't feel any need to brandish them negatively, which could be construed as showing support to the wrong side of climate change by those on the wrong side of climate change.
Ooof, well I miss-judged that then...
Watching the news and the JSO protest action came up, long story short, turns out my missus is amongst the disproportionately outraged, she frankly went swivel-eyed loon on the topic apparently the stones are magical, the more unhinged her proclamations became the more I smiled, the angrier she got. The environmental impact of cleaning the rocks allegedly causes catastrophic harms, I noted The diesel powered car on our driveway at that point...
She brought up the suffragettes unprompted, when I pointed out their less palatable deeds which ultimately got her the vote, she was non-plussed.
Her ultimate and very insightful position was JSO are "a bunch of ****s" and "we're ****ed anyway" so when I suggested she doesn't think we should address climate change and thinks protecting some rocks from cornstarch wielding crusties has higher priority, she went off on me again. Pointing out that the other thing people need in order to stare at the rocks and feel the woo is breathable air also scored me zero points.
All I said was I don't see the reason for all the outrage, people were graffiting and pissing on the things for decades before English heritage roped them off and started charging.
Shell, Esso and BP throw billions at advertising showing various quasi-mythical wind farms and EV changing stations, while they still make most of their money from flogging Dinosaur juice, JSO basically need these sort of stunts to get equivalent cut through, but yeah there is such a thing as "Bad press" perhaps.
I agreed to disagree, but even that was not good enough, apparently "England is it's monuments" and I should "value our heritage" . I just smiled, and told her I loved her... It's going to be a long weekend.
Before the stones became magically aligned and culturally entrenched, they had to be cemented in, and lintels mortared...
Nuclear is difficult to build at the pace required. Fails on both costs and timescales
Timescales would have been fine, if the Country's energy strategy and planning hadn't been binned in the 1980s when Thatcher's Tory Gov broke up the CEGB and sold the generating capacity to their city spuv mates for a quick buck at a fraction of it's true value. The problem is 30 + years of not building any.
The economy slowly slides into the sea, the infrastructure crumbling to post-industrial ruins while global megacorps smother the towns and cities like toxic mould infecting the inhabitants with subscription addiction. But wait, I hear faint echoes of And did those feet in ancient times... and a voice cuts through it all.
“England is it’s monuments”
How reassuring.
It’s going to be a long weekend.
If she mentions “we need a new patio”………be afraid……be very afraid.
@faustus - that photo doesn’t show anything of the sort. The lintel stones are held in place by a sort of mortise and tenon arrangement, and some stones were pinned with steel rods to prevent them from actually falling apart.
The return of one of the cores bored to take the steel rods has led to the discovery of the exact location of the source of the Sarcen stones, which is about twenty miles away.
The stones have been there for 5000 years, and have come close to being destroyed previously, they’re ancient and have very old colonies of litchens on them, living things which can give us information into air quality, especially being so close to the main road and they deserve to be treated with respect.
All these industries have big prominent headquarters buildings, and often are involved with major sponsorship deals, how about these people do something a bit risky, and really kick off at a sports event, like, oh, off the top of my head, running in front of the horses at Aintree or something; that might get the a few column inches…
The stones have been there for 5000 years, and have come close to being destroyed previously, they’re ancient and have very old colonies of litchens on them, living things which can give us information into air quality, especially being so close to the main road and they deserve to be treated with respect.
If only there were other stones as old as that which hadn't moved in so long.
Every protest is the Wrong Sort of Protest, or the Wrong Time to Protest, for some people.
It's not something I would have done but I'm bored by tone policing.
It would seem they’re now sponsoring EasyJet.
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1803684785979617334?s=46&t=8bXMCYO7QquqvQ0V5lkcDw
As for Stonehenge. That’s going to them publicly but it hasn’t done them any favours.
The point needs to be made and they’re doing more than I am about it.
All depends what you are measuring.
Are they getting in the media more than I am - undoubtedly
Are they changing anyones minds, any governments policies, any companies strategies (including Oil, Gas etc,. companies) - not as far as I can see
It would seem they’re now sponsoring EasyJet.
So how long before a Greens MPs gets caught betting on who's next to get sprayed orange?
JSOs whole point is about people/media etc getting outraged by a bit of orange but not outraged about much that is contributing to climate change.
Or they debate the methods not the subject itself.
Maybe it's all too complicated for the average newspaper reader / One Show viewer 🙂
"Are they changing anyones minds, any governments policies, any companies strategies (including Oil, Gas etc,. companies) – not as far as I can see"
I don't think they're trying to change minds. Many people will be entrenched for many mainly selfish reasons and aren't open to having their minds changed anyway. It's about waking up to the lack of caring about a situation generally and an effort to keep the topic from being smoothed over. If scientific research and the evidence in front of us isn't changing enough minds a protest isn't going to either.
SKS is, at his very core, a lawyer. He sees most everything through the eyes of the law and due process. I take his statement in that light. it doesn’t mean he doesn’t care about the environment and GBE shows that intention.
They are on every mainstream news channel. Maybe that.
And how many people actually went from seeing them on the news to actually reading what they stood for. Even me, a significant environmentalist wishes they’d put their energy to better use than defacing art work and vandalising history or causing massive property damage. Blockade refineries, stop air freight shipping additives to chemical companies, protest outside petroleum companies and ineos. But do something related.
Oh god! Grimep is one of them. I’ve more respect for flat earth nutters. At least they are amusing
These things are sent to try us.
We have a protest group here in the South Cotswolds that want to STOP LIME DOWN - the 1/2GW solar plant and battery storage plan for this area. Maybe JUST STOP OIL could come and suggest to people why, local solar and storage is worth some disruption as it will enable them to no longer use heating oil (which everyone in this area does) and therefore JUST STOP OIL, but no, they paint Stonehenge, stick themselves to artwork and damage private jets. Talk about fiddling around the edges.
We have a protest group here in the South Cotswolds that want to STOP LIME DOWN – the 1/2GW solar plant and battery storage plan for this area. Maybe JUST STOP OIL could come and suggest to people why, local solar and storage is worth some disruption as it will enable them to no longer use heating oil (which everyone in this area does) and therefore JUST STOP OIL, but no, they paint Stonehenge, stick themselves to artwork and damage private jets. Talk about fiddling around the edges.
Yeah, i'm just across from there, it certainly sets off the NIMBYs, especially in that area, which is weird as it's pretty barren, with the army barracks, dyson and a couple of villages.
I was lucky enough to get to the stones before the restrictions came in. I am still outraged that just before my visit (1967) some **** had performed the 1960s equivalent of tagging on them. I travelled by Austin Hypocrite 1100.
put their energy to better use than defacing art work and vandalising history or causing massive property damage.
Do they though? I haven't seen any actual vandalism or defacing of anything, just the creation of an impression of it.
Do they though?
Nope - just back from stonehenge. The orange stones might have brightened up what was otherwise a pretty uniformly shit morning but ... nothing
How about the private jets they damaged at Stanstead? Dependent on what they used (I’d guess they weren’t as considerate to these as to Stonehenge) it’ll cost hundreds of thousands along with substantial amounts of time, energy and money chamicals and FUEL to put right. It’ll need to be flown somewhere to be repaired/repainted.
Climate protesters threw soup at the Mona Lisa…why? Does anyone even know what group they were from or what they want to achieve. It’s pathetic anarchy and does nothing to further the cause.
Well, if it didn’t cause outrage they wouldn’t be doing it. If it was a couple of rocks in the middle of Exmoor they wouldn’t do something like this. The point is to cause outrage and frankly I think it’s completely counterproductive.
Except even on a remarkably climate change apathetic cycling forum like this we're discussing how should we go about convincing people to "just stop oil" if not orange cornflour.
I'd say they're being highly successful.
Climate protesters threw soup at the Mona Lisa…why? Does anyone even know what group they were from or what they want to achieve. It’s pathetic anarchy and does nothing to further the cause.
It reminds me more of arty style stuff you'd get from Emin or Hirst rather than a protest, but without knowing your audience, how exactly are they going to progress, what do they actually want at the end of the day, how are they exerting any pressure on governments and organisations when they're effectively doing the work for them in terms of public relations?
Just seems an odd target.
Yep, the very next day they sprayed a private jet which seems more in their lane.
JSO deliberately used visually striking but not permanent dye
They 'got away' with because it was dry and the dye could be blown off, had it been wet then it may have damaged (possibly killed, who knows) some lichen that grows there [which in of itself is a rare thing in that part of the world] For environmental protestors, that seems more than a little bit 'under' planned. Stone Henge has been mucked about with so much, it doesn't really represent anything more than the 'idea' of Neolithic life. However as symbols go, attacking a monument that serves as a reminder of times past when we did manage to live somewhat more harmoniously with the planet seems a bit skewed.
Action for actions sake
@CountZero - many of the stones have been concreted in, and it's current appearance owes much to work carried out in the early 20th century. Also, some lintels had mortar applied in the 60s to help secure them.
I'm not disputing it's prehistoric significance or how impressive a thing it is, it's more that it owes much of it's current reverence to cultural forces, particularly that of the traditions of heritage manufacture (not literally, but culturally). The picture above is just a little counterpoint to the idea it is inviolable, because as in the early 20th century and more recently, it is restored and maintained and has been subject to centuries of 'visitor management' and all that entails (inc. charging entry). Of course, judicious use of steel and cement and fences have helped it to be viewed and revered by millions, and to become a world heritage site.
The JSO protest in this context is just another PR stunt trying to leverage people's cultural sensibilities. Their cause is just but there methods are becoming more obtuse. Less cultural insult for me in that the mechanics of this kind of cultural reverence impact my feeling of any potential 'outrage'. It sometimes feels like JSO are wondering into the territory of Fathers4Justice protests: partly tragic, distant from the aims and subject of protest.
How about the private jets they damaged at Stanstead?
I didn't see that, I stand corrected if so. Well, it's taking the direct action some say they should : )
how exactly are they going to progress, what do they actually want at the end of the day, how are they exerting any pressure on governments and organisations when they’re effectively doing the work for them in terms of public relations?
"Because all the work of so many other organisations using research, reason and debate has done so well so far, right?" ..is the argument I heard.
They're challenging people's own reactions. The flaw I see is that the people who don't care are not likely to be persuaded because you're asking people to act in ways that they see as losing out personally. So much of this is about whether you think of your own needs Vs thinking about how we all fit into this whole system. And no it's not a fair system, I get it .. taking the debate down to finer points is endless. The basic point is, if you're so annoyed by a kid with blue hair throwing something orange on something you see as valuable .. why don't you care about things that are far more valuable or why aren't you questioning private jet use, or people still flying 4x a year for city weekend breaks, or buying massive SUVs, etc (some will, I'm talking generally).
I sound like a JSO supporter, I know. I'm not sure I really am tbh but I can hear what they're getting at. And I don't believe they're turning anyone against the general climate cause at all .. that would be some dumb thinking if you were influenced against it by just this. People just use this kind of thing as an excuse not to have to think about their own part in it all. They don't like kids with blue hair, they don't like people who have some spirit or rebellion in them, they want to keep consuming carefree, they're people who replace thinking with cynicism because it's easier, they have money invested in the status quo, whatever.
All in all the protests are a general level point and I don't see how attacking it via minor logic points undermines it, if anything it's dong what they're protesting about - being enraged or into debate about them rather than turning it on the politicians who don't act or the deniers and private jet users etc.
The basic point is, if you’re so annoyed by a kid with blue hair throwing something orange on something you see as valuable .. why don’t you care about things that are far more valuable or why aren’t you questioning private jet use, or people still flying 4x a year for city weekend breaks, or buying massive SUVs, etc (some will, I’m talking generally).
Because the folks that JSO are aiming their protest at don't really see Stone Henge as valuable either. What's valuable to them is their 4x4 or their flight to Dubai. I'd have more sympathy with the direct action that keeps on smashing the car-windows of folks that live in city centres and drive Range Rovers, than the folks throwing a bit of dye on some stones that gets washed off and like the newspaper headline - is instantly forgotten. It's literally meaningless.
It’s pathetic anarchy and does nothing to further the cause.
It's not a popular opinion of mine but I thought the Mona Lisa stunt was one of the most interesting and impactful protest statements I can think of. I don't know if or how much it furthers the cause but if it gets a few people thinking and talking about it in a dialectic way rather than media comments rage way, it's better than not doing it at all. It raises the topic and it leaves it to us to question or react. For that reason alone I find it hard to be an 'anti'.
The Highways Agency will do a lot more damage to the whole site when they build the road tunnel.
I’m looking forward to seeing them in court, both criminal and civil. Committing criminal damage is not acceptable imho. It’s just vandalism. I hope they are prosecuted and the owners of the planes sue them.
I have no problem with peaceful protest but all this does is harm their cause as no one with a sensible solution wants to risk association with them. It’s very clear jso have no credible solution. Even their vandals rely on oil to perform these stunts because they can’t live without oil.
I don’t know if or how much it furthers the cause but if it gets a few people thinking and talking about it in a dialectic way rather than media comments rage way, it’s better than not doing it at all.
A big if there and it is just as likely to put more people off and think climate change stuff is for "those nutters".
^ this. What purpose do they think this is going to possibly serve?
That they can drive 100 miles back home in their oil guzzling car, sit in front of their wood burning stove eating a nice New Zealand Lamb steak with a glass of white wine from the Napa Valley, watching their Chinese 65" widescreen TV, sound in the knowledge they have done their bit to save the planet.
Because the folks that JSO are aiming their protest at don’t really see Stone Henge as valuable either.
I know what you mean. Some will though and some will just be triggered because it's 'lefties' with blue hair. And that's kind of the point, what and who are you angry with and why, and does that make much sense / how proportional is that? ..and for those who can't have that internal debate or resolve that Q, well.. thinking is hard sometimes isn't it : )
People have different views because they've had different lives and influences. I heard someone say, if you'd have lived their life so far you'd think like they do. Probably true. Change is hard.
A big if there and it is just as likely to put more people off and think climate change stuff is for “those nutters”.
As I said, if this 'puts people off' then they're people who're hard of thinking or never GAS to begin with. A person can be pro environmental causes and anti JSO's methods, or pro both. Your position on environmental issues sits way above some media protest tactics. This isn't a net loss thing, the folks who don't GAS are anti anyway, JSO or not.
Sure I get what you're saying, but actions like attacking Stone Henge are the excuse lots of folks need to just ignore them, and write off their actions as 'just vandalism' Rather than provoke a discussion or thoughts about what they hold valuable, it's all the fuel (no pun intended) to do the exact opposite.
Then as RM points out, it just becomes action for action's sake, it's un-directed and pointless.
A person can be pro environmental causes and anti JSO’s methods
Yes, I am one of those people. As for not GAS, I am in that camp when in comes to JSO as think they are pointless and any effect they have is tiny but they seem to be enjoying themselves I suppose.
And lets be honest for a moment, Stonehenge is a Victorian re-imagining of what a henge looked like.
I'd bet you a penny to a pound that at various points in time people painted it in bright colors and did far more outrageous things there than shuffle past some grey stones mumbling about how magnificent "our" history / country is.
'graffiti' / vandalism, whatever, is as old as the stones themselves...
As for not GAS, I am in that camp when in comes to JSO as think they are pointless and any effect they have is tiny but they seem to be enjoying themselves I suppose.
I may be in that camp, I'm not sure tbh. I can't say for sure if they're pointless - it'd just be an opinion. So on balance I just think along the lines of there being (almost) no such thing as bad publicity. And, older folks like me should listen to younger folks more.
‘graffiti’ / vandalism, whatever, is as old as the stones themselves…
I remember seeing all the graffiti on there when you could get that close. No equivalent outrage over that, no-one trying to find who Robbo1977 was etc. No outrage in the papers when a beautiful old building in a city centre gets tagged because it happens all the time. You need a 'man bites dog' situation to get in the papers - as JSO realise.
Sure I get what you’re saying, but actions like attacking Stone Henge are the excuse lots of folks need to just ignore them, and write off their actions as ‘just vandalism’ Rather than provoke a discussion or thoughts about what they hold valuable, it’s all the fuel (no pun intended) to do the exact opposite.
I'm sorting of with Jameso on this TBH, the people who are "put off" most likely weren't interested in engaging with the topic to begin with, if they needed "an excuse" there was never going to be any dialogue was there?
A handful are able to see the issue despite the (mostly) RW media narrative.
Just like my wife, she's not denying climate change or that something must be done, but her priorities are sadly out of whack and in her mind that something falls to someone else and she's gotten hung up on the nature of the protests not the topic they're attempting to draw attention to.
