Forum menu
We are still in the top ten of the worlds biggest manufacturing economies I'm led to believe. We just don't churn out quantity.
Indeed, we appear to do much worse in manufacturing innovation surveys. So seems that Mohamad was correct then....and the implications for wages are.....?
El-bent, given you first comment on the OP above, is this merely more bait or do you really think that the state has been un-involved in the UK economy?Unfortunately mcboo, it has been a lack the state doing anything (like De-regulation) that has helped us into this mess in the first place.
I don't know how this ugly titled thread turned into a debate on the high street, but my tuppence-worth......The good old days for high street shops are gone and arent ever coming back. Blame Tesco if you want but a combination of out of town supermarkets and the web have changed how we shop and nothing is going to turn back the clock. Amazon is the Walmart of the web....I buy a huge amount of basic household goods on it, not to mention books and electronics. Weekly shop comes online from Ocado or Sainsburys.
We have a fantastic high street, full of great independent shops of all flavours, some usual chains like Starbucks too. But then I'm very lucky to live there.
Mcboo - so no planning controls at all needed then?
I was astonished at the variety and buoyant nature of the shops in the dutch town centres so I looked into why - Its basically down to planning policies.
I quite like supermarkets. Huge choice, several price levels, minimal time spent shopping, no fuss.
High streets are good for restaurants, niche goods and the like. That's about it.
Unfortunately mcboo, it has been a lack the state doing anything (like De-regulation) that has helped us into this mess in the first place.The state may not be the perfect mechanism for control, but those that replaced it have failed.
The state tells us what to do anyway, you just object to the state telling you what to do if it interferes with your business interests.
Just a long way of arguing for socialism in a different name. No thank you.
The state may not be the perfect mechanism for control, but those that replaced it have failed.
Sometimes, sometimes not...lets take MTB
Helmet - shop at trail centre £90, Wiggle £50, On One £40 - where do you buy your helmet? Has competition increased your welfare or not? Does your wage go further or less? How should the state intervene here? What was it that Elfin used to say about LBS etc?
Ok simplistic analogy, but its funny how easy it is to overlook these things? 😉
so Mcboo - no planning controls in your world at all?
Mcboo - so no planning controls at all needed then?
Yes TJ thats clearly what I'm asking for. You're really on fire today arent you fella?
I was astonished at the variety and buoyant nature of the shops in the dutch town centres so I looked into why - Its basically down to planning policies.
This could be implemented for the future,I.e, no more large out of town shopping complexes, don't know how successful given the power supermarkets and the like have over Governments.
But what's done is done. Can't start rolling back changes that have been made to date, unless you are thinking of banning the car and the internet TJ.
High streets are good for restaurants, niche goods and the like. That's about it.
This is pretty much the way it's going, but niche products sometime don't do well in a difficult economic climate.
You could be in nearly any city in the UK; same rubbish shops, same products, same choice
When was this different? Years ago there were still lots of rubbish shops, they just had different names over the doors.
TJ - are you saying our supermarkets should be small and in-town? Or should we go into town and trawl around butchers and green grocers? This would cost more, as outlined above. Maybe you should tell mboy on the other thread that he has to find some extra money cos his food bill would go up..?
If we want it cheap it has to be big, and if it's going to be big it's not going in town.
Now - Cardiff has a high st and out of town shops. Both are equally busy. It's actually a hell of a lot easier to park in town than at any of the out of town places incidentally. We like to go into town because it's a nice place to walk around and get food. High St and out of town can co-exist.
Anyway. Ask yourself why out of town supermarkets are so popular. It's cos we like doing our weekly shopping in them. You are suggesting stopping us from doing what we want...
Now - Cardiff has a high st and out of town shops. Both are equally busy. It's actually a hell of a lot easier to park in town than at any of the out of town places incidentally. We like to go into town because it's a nice place to walk around and get food. High St and out of town can co-exist.
See also Salisbury. Many shops are actually thriving in the town centre, or at least those that are any good!
at least those that are any good
Bingo. Seems like old skool shopkeepers just stock the same crap they always have and expect people to shop there just because. Then they go out of business and whine about it.
People go on about how John Lewis is successful because of its employee ownership model. That's not why it's successful - it's because it sells lovely stuff, and the assistants have had training in how to be nice and professional to the customers. In other words, they are figuring out what makes people happy.
The other electronic retailers seem to be concerned about making deals with distributors and stocking whatever same old junk they get from them, as far as I can tell.
Oh to live back in Paris - hardly any supermarkets, buy [b]fresh[/b] food every day, from [b]specialist[/b] shops to be [b]consumed immediately[/b]....
...after wiping the dog mess on every pavement off your shoes!!! 😉
There are "some" good High Streets out there -[b] wonder what drives them to be different[/b]? What do Cardiff and Salisbury do differently?
TJ - are you saying our supermarkets should be small and in-town? Or should we go into town and trawl around butchers and green grocers? This would cost more, as outlined above.
Both - and why would it cost more?
The whole 'High Street' issue has been solved
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/feb/07/retail-trade-north-south-divide?newsfeed=true ]here[/url]
Mary Portas made 28 recomendations about reviving the retail centres.
The government are going to share out £1 million. YES, A WHOLE £1 MILLION between the 12 most deprived and financially devastated town centres in the country (all up north)
REJOICE! REJOICE! WE'RE SAVED!!!!!!!!!
I'm not sure how much the local council will have had to cut already to services. But that million between them is bound to cover it!
Good question THM.
1) Cardiff has a huge catchment area. Lots of crappy towns up in the Valleys that have train and road links. Seems like the majority of voices you hear on the weekend in town are Valleys or West Wales accents. Lots of people also come down by train to drink in the evening - only possible because the good network of branch lines that survived Beeching.
2) It has town centre shopping centres. The Cardiff equivalent of the Trafford centre or Cribbs Causeway is actually in the middle of town and surrounded by normal shops. And a castle, a nice riverside park, the civic centre and a big chunk of the university.
3) There are loads of modern easy to use car parks. Some of them are pretty expensive mind.
4) It seems to have a sort of critical mass of amenities. Possibly because the Millenium Stadium and the Arms Park being right in town. This means there are lots of hotels are in town to accommodate the rugby fans.. then there are lots of restaurants and bars. There's also a big concert venue (Motorpoint Arena used to be CIA) that also does exhibitions, and two big multiscreen cinemas - I'm talking 13 screens and all. Not many other towns have their multiplexes in the town centre.
Both - and why would it cost more?
Well larger shops have lower costs. Stuff is cheaper in larger quantities. A big supermarket in the middle of Cardiff would cost a fortune in land or rent. That's why they are out of town now.
Just a long way of arguing for socialism in a different name. No thank you.
So it does effect your interests. Nice to know where an "individuals" interests lie.
El-bent, given you first comment on the OP above, is this merely more bait or do you really think that the state has been un-involved in the UK economy?
Un-involved, no, not involved enough, yes.
Helmet - shop at trail centre £90, Wiggle £50, On One £40 - where do you buy your helmet? Has competition increased your welfare or not? Does your wage go further or less? How should the state intervene here?
You are talking about price controls, which is quite a quirky way of trying to make me look like an absolute socialist if I agreed with your scenario.
Competition is good in a lot of things, but I'm against taking that particular model to the nth degree.
Good question THM.
Agreed.
Salisbury? Well, good road and rail links in to town certainly helps, as do;
- High quality specialists (Such as bike shop, gun shop, snowboard shop, sewing machine shop, home-brew shop, hardware stores, etc) all of whom have made a big effort on service, service, service
- Really good, proper market, with a REAL farmer's market included
- Supermarkets in town centre (Sainsbburys and Tesco)
- Large supermarket within a nice stroll distance away (Waitrose, for those of us willing to walk from there in to town, it's rather nice!)
- Lots of nice places for lunch/coffee etc, and not just the drab chain-cafes
- It's a really nice City to be in, bringing in tourists as well
Salisbury?
But doesn't the wealth of the local population come into it? There are plenty of these types of shops where I live due to the wealth of the local population who can financially support it and "prefer" to shop this way.
I wonder if this model would be successful it it were transplanted to Consett.
El-bent, not trying to make you look anything, genuine question. I was not thinking about price controls (but since you mention them, remember how successful they were when Tory and Lab gov's tried them - prices and incomes policies?) more that there are less obvious benefits from competition that are often overlooked by those that enjoy them.
I wonder if this model would be successful it it were transplanted to Consett.
Another good question.
What about the demographic of Salisbury? Isn't it a fairly affluent place? I think this has a bearing too.
I'm thinking of Ludlow as another example. It does well. It used to be a pretty basic country town full of yokels and then somehow it attracted hoardes of middle class foodie yahoos from all over the country. So now it has fancy restaurants and 'nick nack' shops interspersed with cheap newsagents and scruffy pubs. They used to have a no Tesco policy but relented, letting one go in the spot vacated by the cattle market about 15 years ago or so (told you it was a country town - cattle market in town centre!). Many of the nicer town centre shops are patronised by well off retirees who enjoy ambling about town in the week.
El-bent, not trying to make you look anything, genuine question. I was not thinking about price controls (but since you mention them, remember how successful they were when Tory and Lab gov's tried them) more that there are less obvious benefits from competition that are often overlooked by those that enjoy them.
Fair enough. There are benefits to competition, just as there are benefits to keeping some stuff out of it.
Fair enough. There are benefits to competition, just as there are benefits to keeping some stuff out of it.
Possibly true. Funny, this thread is distracting me from finishing revision notes/briefs for my son and his mates on arguments for restricting free trade!!! Must get back to it now! [Quite a civil debate for STW especially given the topic and the OP and title!!]
And enough of this patronising garbage about a past before Tesco where our high streets were places of individuality, and tender, loving service. Who the hell wants to go back to the 1980s anyway? You guys arguing for state intervention to control supermarkets would have been the same people opposing selling off BT. Can you imagine if BT still had a monopoly on your cell phone? You think you would be getting an iPhone package for £30 a month? The answer is no.
Woolworths was the poster boy victim of a changing market. Ours closed down and was replaced by a lovely little Waitrose which everyone loves. I only miss Woolies when I need to buy empty plastic boxes at short notice. Thats a market economy, give the public what they want.
You guys arguing for state intervention to control supermarkets would have been the same people opposing selling off BT. Can you imagine if BT still had a monopoly on your cell phone? You think you would be getting an iPhone package for £30 a month? The answer is no.
Interesting, BT is something I wouldn't re-nationalise, but they still hold a monopoly over the infrastructure.
But what about the water companies? I can't phone up offwat and ask them whether I can change water suppliers as mine is a little expensive. A privatised monopoly.
Interesting, BT is something I wouldn't re-nationalise, but they still hold a monopoly over the infrastructure.
Really? Who knew.
Hasn't this thread missed the essential thrust about what the dude was saying which was we have to focus less on money creating more paper money, grind coffee beans and stop ****ing with peoples currency?
Which I tend to agree with.
As to the high street having recently had the rent increased mid recession from 10 k to 15k per annum on our store which had to close down and relocate back to a little industrial unit we started out on 3 three years ago by some rich bitch landlady who doesn't quite understand why we can't earn an extra five grand a year selling the stuff we sell, with tumbleweed blowing down the high street most days and early closing on Wednesday. The Vat having increased to 20% which effectively switched business off last year (always rely on the Tories to really grind a recession home) so in one year we were almost wiped out at that store.
Now we're back in our little industrial unit, folk can drive here in their vans and park, buy their snowboards and chew the cud without worrying about parking [s]nazis[/s]attendants stickering up their cars, and so far this year our business is recovering, so we're all for out of town shop units, just wish there were more of them available to the type of small shop we are.
High streets are now the province of charity stores, coffee shops, banks & building societies, big issue selling romanies, with the odd busker and chugger here and there, best avoided.
ford
Morris
Gm motors
Rover
Landrover
Triumph
I assume you get the picture
With a list like that I assume you [i]don't [/i] get the picture.
Our car manufacturing is not 'mass' is specialist, but we're very good at it. Luxury brands like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar and Range Rover are niche players and seeing strong demand from China right now.
Most of the value in these brands is in just that, the brand. They don't represent absolute quality on any higher level than say BMW, VAG or Honda.
High streets are now the province of charity stores, coffee shops, banks & building societies, big issue selling romanies, with the odd busker and chugger here and there, best avoided
In sh*t towns, maybe. Not in nice ones 🙂
Hasn't this thread missed the essential thrust about what the dude was saying which was we have to focus less on money creating more paper money, grind coffee beans and stop **** with peoples currency?
Ok - why?
We used to make things, then we stopped doing it so much. Why was that?
molgrips - MemberOk - why?
We used to make things, then we stopped doing it so much. Why was that?
Same reason we no longer attempt to pay local single speed riding proles to dig stuff out of the ground, we buy it from places where trade unions haven't given them an over inflated sense of their worth.
trade unions haven't given them an over inflated sense of their worth
You think trade unionism is the only reason China and India make stuff so cheaply? Hehe 🙂
All these worthless financiers moving money around are a big part of the reason that people have enough money to buy snowboards from you and jet around Europe using them.
molgrips - MemberYou think trade unionism is the only reason China and India make stuff so cheaply? Hehe
You know some other reason?
In as much as the trade union movement back the labour party, the labour party gave us the welfare state, the welfare state keeps wages high comparatively speaking, if you're looking for the reason wages in India & China have lower wages.
The material cost in a Snowboard is the same wether it's built in China or Europe, but in China they leave the factory for as little as $50. whereas in the European facilities they'll be minimum 90 € with the benefit of a mechanised production line.
Wouldn't it be nice to manufacture snowboards in England, someone tried it once, didn't last long.
In the States it was sad when K2 closed Vazon island in the late nineties, early noughties but....
As the man said we're paying ourselves too much to do too little.
molgrips - MemberWe used to make things, then we stopped doing it so much. Why was that?
Actually we didn't. UK manufacturing value has grown most years in the last 50, and was at an all time high in 2008. In 2010 we were the 7th biggest industrial producer in the world.
In as much as the trade union movement back the labour party, the labour party gave us the welfare state, the welfare state keeps wages high comparatively speaking, if you're looking for the reason wages in India & China have lower wages.
I think the welfare state is only a small part in this. Living on an island and having to import so much does add to the cost of materials and subsequently the cost of living.
I find this whole business of sacrificing the welfare state and our living standards to compete with two nations that both have 1bn+ populations and far lower living standards a bit bizarre. We can't compete with them at what is now their own game, so we should play something else.
But using this to justify the scrapping of the welfare state, and the social protections that unions in past have thought for is entirely predictable...from right wingers.
I find this whole business of sacrificing the welfare state and our living standards to compete with two nations that both have 1bn+ populations and far lower living standards a bit bizarre. We can't compete with them at what is now their own game, so we should play something else.But using this to justify the scrapping of the welfare state, and the social protections that unions in past have thought for is entirely predictable...from right wingers.
I want some magic beans
Isn't it a fairly affluent place?
Not really. Bar the military (who are obviously massively rich. NOT!) and the support services, there's not a lot around there.
Perhaps the key is, the people around Salisbury don't whine or complain or demand that someone wipes their arse, they just get on with it.
El-bent - MemberSalisbury?
But doesn't the wealth of the local population come into it? There are plenty of these types of shops where I live due to the wealth of the local population who can financially support it and "prefer" to shop this way.
I wonder if this model would be successful it it were transplanted to Consett.
Would any model be sucessfull in Consett
the last time I visited it was infested by tanning shops I do remember going to the co op with my uncle and dad to get some melba toast no chance mine you it was the 70s, pease pudding no problem 🙂
It is sad that most high streets are the same and there isnt the regional variation that should exist
You know some other reason?
Yes! The cost of living is far lower, and the standard of living is also far lower. So you can get away with paying the workers peanuts. Not just the snowboard workers but the people who make the plastic, the people who drive it to the factory, the people who pack them up and drive them to port etc etc etc.
there isnt the regional variation that should exist
What - flat cap shops up north, pearly king costumes in London, that kind of thing?
What - flat cap shops up north, pearly king costumes in London, that kind of thing?
sort of but no, you know what I mean, 20 years ago you could go from up north to the south and there were different supermarkets and department shops now most towns sell the same stuff. Its similar in Hong Kong as 7-11 shops are almost everywhere squeezing out the independents.
The shops were different but how meaningful was that? Was a Northern furniture store really any different to a Southern one?
Maybe there were more suppliers offering products targeted at local markets or maybe not I was too young to know and I hated shopping and still do
Right so it's rose tinted glasses then? Are they available on the High St? 🙂
Well maybe there were more suppliers but one thing is for sure it is boring to go from one town to another to see the same shops selling the same stuff. Variety is good.
The consumer (thats you and me) are to blame for the decline of the independent shops by shoping in the chains otherwise the high street would be full of independent shops and not chains. I am as guilty as the next man.
oh rose tinted glasses are available everywhere even online 🙂