These rail strikes then…

Cost of living rising faster than wages, and the unions are battling to rectify that issue - good on them, best of luck, I say. 🙂

They're a bit stuck, I think. Govt won't give them more subsidy, doesn't give a shit. They can't put fares up much or they'll lose customers. It's all a big ****ing mess and no-one in government cares.

Well those. Reading the union pages and trying to read between the lines it seems the government are leaving them to it, probably thinking “we’ll you suck up 3 days revenue loss then…”

In the meantime, rail workers don’t get paid anymore and we all avoid going near a train station. Feels like a lose lose.

Devils advocate here - no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different? Also there's a school of thought that this is a step-shift and they're jumping in now in order to get a bigger pay increase.

Personally, if I'm going into London it's already cheaper and more convenient for me to drive and park for the day than it is to get the train. What we need is massive investment in infrastructure to make things more efficient and probably re-privatisation to make it all not-for-profit, but we'll not be seeing that any time soon.

Have you not heard? Kate Bush is top of the charts, Top Gun is the number one film, Russia is throwing its weight around. We’re rerunning 1986. So some large scale strikes are essential to the retro feel

Grab your ra-ra skirt and your Walkman and go and join the flying pickets 😃

I was just about to nip down and buy advance tickets from Stafford to Gatwick on the 25th when the news came through. I'm still holding off deciding anything until we get a bit closer. I don't fancy driving and 2 weeks parking.

madhouse
Full Member

Devils advocate here – no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different?

Exactly this! They shouldn't be any different. Time for everyone to start standing up after a full decade of being shat on and start demanding what they're worth.

Trains in this country are a waste of time for me, it's cheaper and more reliable for me to drive which is mental when you think about it. How can 1 person in a vehicle be cheaper than 1000 people sharing one to a destination?

I'm not really bothered about the strike either way personally, but I can't say I have any ill feelings towards them for wanting more pay. Who wouldn't?

Exactly this! They shouldn’t be any different. Time for everyone to start standing up after a full decade of being shat on and start demanding what they’re worth.

Without a nationwide productivity increase all you'd achieve is increasing inflation until the pay rises were eroded.

However, you could look at a more equitable distribution of wealth, but that is just crazy talk!

I don't think their timing is very smart, rail usage at an all time low and the whole system is loss making. Unless usage picks up all that will happen is redundancies and the more they are paid, the more redundancies there will be down the line....

The strike isn't just about pay but trying to stop redundancies and the changes to the service that are clearly needed. All those people now working from home aren't going back to working full time in a city centre office.

How can 1 person in a vehicle be cheaper than 1000 people sharing one to a destination?

Without wishing to get technical on transportation - those 1,000 people don't all have the same destination, which is the main issue!

rail usage at an all time low

Well that's a bit cheeky. It's true, but clearly only because of the pandemic:

Devils advocate here – no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different? Also there’s a school of thought that this is a step-shift and they’re jumping in now in order to get a bigger pay increase.

We're trundling towards the deepest recession in a century with a trope of imbeciles at the wheel while inflation runs at 12%.

This is the ideal time to lock in a pay rise that holds pace with inflation and good on them for doing it now before the shit actually hits the economic fan and employers cite the recession as a reason not to increase pay.

It's hardly the staff's fault for the fact that rail companies feel the need to return to their shareholders instead of invest in the network.

Im a daily commuter by rail into london

there are less trains, less frequently and they are quieter than pre-pandemic, I get a seat pretty much every day
which was unheard of b4 covid!

cost of my train fare is eyewatering

You’d have thought that rail industry workers would recognise that the govt put £16bn into the industry and in-all-but-the-finer-details re-nationalised it as a response the the pandemic: Nobody on furlough but plenty stay at home on full pay, especially when the NHS that got us through the same pandemic got a derisory pay rise.

But then, cost of living increase and the fact that train operators (due to the new National Rail Contracts which were brought in as part of the rescue package to keep the railways running) have been asking for a mandate from DfT to negotiate with unions and not received any kind of guidance/authority from the govt (I wonder why?) means that normal pay negotiations have not progressed.

Add in, as part of the new Great British Rail structure, there’s a whole swathe of rather difficult “modernisation” plans afoot, which following the pandemic and changed travel patterns are desperately needed to stop the service in whatever form (public or private-with-subsidies) becoming a huge costly albatross around the country’s neck, but which will ultimately cost lots of jobs.

Also, I *think* that the local RMT reps probably recognise that local management have their hands tied, and have worked pretty hard to try and get things back on track after the pandemic (still have months of work to get back to pre-pandemic operation) so don’t really have that much of an axe to grind. However, they have somewhat been driven by the desire of the central union leaders to create a new “summer of discontent” given the antics of Boris and his idiocracy.

So weirdly we’re in a position where unions are striking for ‘pay’ when they haven’t received an pay offer to reject but have balloted on this footing as it’s (probably) easier to explain to members with the well advertised cost of living crisis, when it’s actually about the shambles of a current government and the potential for future job losses and T&C changes which are vital to deliver a rail industry which is fit for the new post-pandemic world.

Hope that makes sense, because is a convoluted point that the industry is got to and I’m not sure how else to explain it.

Well that’s a bit cheeky. It’s true, but clearly only because of the pandemic:

Still bad timing asking for a pay rise!

So weirdly we’re in a position where unions are striking for ‘pay’ when they haven’t received an pay offer to reject but have balloted on this footing as it’s (probably) easier to explain to members with the well advertised cost of living crisis, when it’s actually about the shambles of a current government and the potential for future job losses and T&C changes which are vital to deliver a rail industry which is fit for the new post-pandemic world.

Strikes me as very bad timing, and have to say I have very little (none) sympathy for it. Unless rail use picks up quick, I would expect a large cull of rail workers to bring costs into line with revenues.....

This is the ideal time to lock in a pay rise that holds pace with inflation and good on them for doing it now before the shit actually hits the economic fan and employers cite the recession as a reason not to increase pay.

Why would a loss making industry want to agree to increase those losses? The rail industry is going to be slashing costs to balance the books unless something miraculous changes.

The rail network has just been run into the ground, at the same time as costs have spiralled, the government threw money at it to try and hide the problem, but that money was squandered as usual. i stopped travelling by train and bought a cheap commuter years ago, now using a bike, as the trains were getting too expensive and unreliable, there were no real bargains, no cheap day tickets that were of any real use or reduction and so on, i know many others that did the same, and then you had COVID.

As always though, the unions need to do their best for their members, but they do need to be wary of the landscape, the Scottish Government gave Scotrail 5% across the board i believe recently, which probably doesn't help this issue, but again, completely separate issues, but i doubt the press or public will see it that way, i see a lot of news stories about police, nurses, etc getting 2% and the press playing that off against the 5% scotrail got, it'll be even worse down here with the daily mail and the likes, as well as fighting in an industry that's subsidised so much at present.

Strikes me as very bad timing, and have to say I have very little (none) sympathy for it. Unless rail use picks up quick, I would expect a large cull of rail workers to bring costs into line with revenues…..

I think that’s wrapped up in the point I make. It’s been advertised within the membership, and therefore in the media, as ‘pay’ because it probably lands with the brothers understanding (due to the cost of living ‘crisis’ headlines) but I think it’s really about industry change (needed) and the useless pile of shite we have as a government (which I agree with).

Weird situation.

cost of my train fare is eyewatering

I expect that in the run up to privatization, the tories and their supportive press put out stories about how privatizing the railways would make them both more efficient and cheaper.

but I think it’s really about industry change (needed)

Yes, we've had conductor-less trains for decades, but other regions seems to be threatening strikes claiming passengers will die if they get rid of conductors.

useless pile of shite we have as a government (which I agree with).

Is that really within the remit of Unions? We have elections which are supposed to decide who is in power. I'm no fan of the Tories, but I'm also no fan of unions striking over political issues.

I expect that in the run up to privatization, the tories and their supportive press put out stories about how privatizing the railways would make them both more efficient and cheaper.

Unless more people start using them pronto, they're going to get a lot more expensive! Currently the tax payer is subsidising a much smaller group of commuters, who are probably above average earners.

I was thinking about heading to North Wales to see family next week until these strikes were announced, now I'm quite reluctant. Even though only three strike days have been announced (21/23/25) so far, the days in-between are expected to be busy... For a 6+ hour journey with road bike, no thanks, I'll look at early July before the next possible strikes are announced.

No issue with them striking, it's got the looks of a year of discontent, Royal Mail postie pay talks going badly too and might well strike for first time since '09. Managers already have strike ballot ready for their own issues.

Is that really within the remit of Unions? We have elections which are supposed to decide who is in power. I’m no fan of the Tories, but I’m also no fan of unions striking over political issues

Built-in isn’t it? Unions are a socialist construct so they naturally support a left-wing view point. A right-wing ruling party is fundamentally against their ethos isn’t it?

The fact that the current lot are populist and very openly dog-whistle blowing right-wingers makes their hackles rise even further than usual.

Even though only three strike days have been announced (21/23/25) so far, the days in-between are expected to be busy

I wouldn’t be too sure that the ‘non-strike’ days between them would run smoothly either - I believe they’re running 0200 -0159 on the days in question which means that if (signallers) book on at midnight for a shift then they won’t, meaning disrupted start-of-service. This means that trains setting off at 7am and running the length of the country won’t be turning up at midday in Brum etc.

Built-in isn’t it? Unions are a socialist construct so they naturally support a left-wing view point.

I thought they were supposed to champion their members rights in the context of work. Messing about in politics seems counter productive, just dilutes their focus on employee rights and they waste effort on something they can't change e.g. rails strikes are not going to bring UK PLC to its knees especially after we've just spent 2 years perfecting not commuting to work.......

It's just going to bring forward more legislation clamping down on unions with even less people objecting to the new legislation.

Try here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/rail-strikes-discussion-thread.232993/

For the full chin-stroker version

Word is, agency staff will be used to cover for strikers. Where's Arthur Scargill?

FWIW improving the railway (HS2, more electrification, upgraded rail, better signalling, new stock) is the only thing to get people using it. That costs money.

no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different?

Because they are willing to strike and it will cause real disruption.
Boris doesn't give a **** though, he can talk tough and appeal to his base

The other thing to bear in mind is that most of the railway network is basically a pension scheme that plays with a train set.

The cost of an across-the-board pay rise is basically negligible in comparison to their future liabilities.

Anyone else think that the Union leaders have more in common With the conservatives than they would like to admit?
Power hungry, only in it for their mates😂🤣

I thought they were supposed to champion their members rights in the context of work.

It is perfectly normal for campaigning organisations to get involved in politics and have political funds to further there aims. Including charities.

And you probably think that Sainsbury's is just there to provide families with their weekly groceries, but Sainsbury's profits are also used to finance political parties and organisations, to give just one example.

Indeed Ernie, these things are never isolated and it pays to follow the trail somewhat (as long as it doesn’t lead somewhere irrelevant like the non-existent basement of a pizza restaurant….)

The other thing to bear in mind is that most of the railway network is basically a pension scheme that plays with a train set.

Another one of those “modernisation” things that I feel the unions should be making a point about, but weirdly making their members poorer by striking hard and early in the longer-term period of the re-forming of the industry.

Like I say weird.

A few things to consider:
On the great western route usage is back to ~85% of pre covid levels
In the last 4 years Network Rail has been through reorganisation resulting in the loss of a significant number of employees and down sizing of the organisation
In the last 4 years recruitment freeze
In the last 4 years pay freeze
Subsequent to the reorganisation, voluntary severance scheme culled significant number of really good staff, they are both replaced and workload has fallen on the remaining
Throughout the pandemic trains ran, carrying carrying key workers. No furlough, just keep working. There was no recognition of this.
Threat of compulsory redundancies within the maintenance org, a group already under staffed and under funded.
I could go on. There are significant changes and improvements required to rail in the UK, but I'm really not surprised strike was voted.

I run a small business, the risk of loosing it all is never far from my mind. We worked all through the pandemic, lots of people did. None of us/them got any recognition for it. In most cases people don’t seek or need it. It was shit for everyone.

footflaps
Full Member

Without a nationwide productivity increase all you’d achieve is increasing inflation until the pay rises were eroded.

Well thank goodness we've had a decade of wage stagnation accompanied by productivity increases, that'll keep inflation at bay.

Unless more people start using them pronto, they’re going to get a lot more expensive! Currently the tax payer is subsidising a much smaller group of commuters, who are probably above average earners.

With the exception of the covid issue, the chart above is showing in the region of 1.7 billion train journeys taken each year. I certainly dont remember tickets making sudden increased of prices post 2021, ergo they've always been expensive, and even if more than 1.7 billion journeys increased, the price would still increase year upon year.

This is the tory model remember, so prices only go up. It's wages and employee rights that go down.

Fair play to them.
As far as I can see it's mostly about changes to terms and conditions.
In other industries workers vote with their feet. Look at the labour shortage on the airlines and the fire/re hire.
In the small private sector companies I've worked at you quite often just leave or threaten to leave. It's not so easy to do that on the trains I imagine

Devils advocate here – no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different?

Because they're better organised and represented than the rest of us, so they're usually in a stronger negotiating position.

It's funny how when strikes are mentioned, the media will bring up the highly paid part workforce and Thier 'huge wages'. No mention of the lower paid staff or the even higher paid directors.

no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different?

Cos unlike many they’re in a union which means they can collectively inform those in government to foxtrot-oscar. 💪

Me - I’m off to an all-day razz at Headingley on 25th so have had to book a minibus at x2 cost.

Surely driverless trains must be technically easier to do than driverless cars?
Oh no, but if we introduce them the drivers will go on strike....

Devils advocate here – no-one else is getting wage inflation anywhere near cost inflation so why should they be any different?

Devils advocate here. Wages have stagnated for decades whilst simultaneously the cost of living has increased, housing prices have continued to rise, large corporations openly boast about making obscene profits, and the wealth divide continues to widen.

But we’ve all just sat here accepted that cost-of-living pay rises are a thing of the past.

If we had more unions pushing for pay-rises that matched inflation we wouldn’t be in a situation whereby someone can work five days a week, be stuck in private rental with no hope of being able to save a deposit to buy a starter home, and still have to rely on food banks and school dinners to ensure their family’s fed.

@andrewh

the cost to change the infrastructure and signalling to make driverless trains a reality isn’t cost effective. It is cheaper to pay the drivers

and as an ASLEF driver we aren’t actually on strike,  even though the Daily Mail is banging on about how overpaid we are this is actually about RMT protecting their members jobs and employment rights. They are the platform staff and track workers who don’t earn anywhere near what the drivers do

I don't how how directly applicable this infographic is to the UK, but I can't find a UK equivalent and it's probably reasonably indicative. The numbers will differ, the thrust probably doesn't.

[img] [/img]

andrewh
Free Member

Surely driverless trains must be technically easier to do than driverless cars?
Oh no, but if we introduce them the drivers will go on strike….

Driverless trains would definitely increase the risk of accidents and loss of life, especially because of our stupidly fractured rail network but, is it acceptable for the cost savings? Unifying everything under a single provider and service would make it much easier. Actually modernising infrastructure instead of doing the bare minimum would do more. These aren't quite prerequisites but they're the difference between risk-taking and doing it right.

The other thing is, rail operators always, always, see "driverless trains" as a way of deskilling. The driver isn't just the driver, they're the person in charge when shit hits the fan (assuming they survive said fan). If well-implemented, safe driverless trains were always accompanied by a strictly matched level of skilled staffing, that'd be a positive. It puts more staff into face-to-face which is great. But, the operators don't want that. In the past we've literally seen operators say "we're removing train guards but we still have catering staff on the train so there's no loss of safety".

So, driverless trains done right? Absolutely, let's do it. But that's not what's on offer, and it never will be when cost is the priority. In the real world of 2022 tory privatised britain, driverless trains is code for having a subcontracted cleaner on minimum wage dealing with the inevitable crashes when 50, 60, 70 year old infrastructure that's been pushed too hard and had its safety checks reduced goes wrong.

If we had more unions pushing for pay-rises that matched inflation we wouldn’t be in a situation whereby someone can work five days a week, be stuck in private rental with no hope of being able to save a deposit to buy a starter home, and still have to rely on food banks and school dinners to ensure their family’s fed

This.

If people are outraged because the Scottish drivers got a 5% rise whilst nurses get 2%, stop and think about who deserves the outrage.

If people are outraged that one of the few remaining unions with power can get a fair deal for their workers whilst everyone else gets crap, stop and think about who deserves the outrage.

Sick and tired of the same old union bashing shite, if you're happy with crap conditions then batter on but quit trying to pull everyone else down with you.

Why would a loss making industry want to agree to increase those losses?

There's your mistake. It's not an industry it's a public service and profit should be nowhere in the financial planning. Without this service traffic and city centres would be inn an even worse condition than currently.

Mind you if the Torys go full trains on time and more services we will have entered a period of Facism.

My TOC has just posted profits of £70mil for the year up to March 2021 (so during the first wave of COVID when trains were empty) It also received £325mil from the government to run the trains in the same period. It made a loss of £3.5mil the previous year (When things were normal and it was being run as a franchise).

Have they not got the model wrong for trains these days? I occasionally get the train one or two stops away because it's convenient but the cost is ridiculous. e.g. to go from my local station in Leighton Buzzard to Milton Keynes central it costs £16.60. to drive my van park for 2 hours and drive home is roughly £10 a journey.

Why would I bother with the trains. The perhaps need to flip the model and reduce costs to encourage more passengers to replace car journeys for shorter drives which in turn would increase revenues and allow for a better pay packet for staff (and allow investment in automated trains which must surely be the answer although I'm sure the unions would also try and block that aka progress).

The perhaps need to flip the model and reduce costs to encourage more passengers to replace car journeys

The main issue is that in general there isn't the capacity to carry any more passengers when they want to travel i.e. at rush hour. So lowering fares wouldn't help that problem.

What we need is more capacity, but that needs major investment all round. We are trying, with HS2, but look at the resistance that's faced. We need a completely new backbone as well as loads of new regional routes, and HS2 is part of that. But can we really trust a UK government to deliver that in a competent manner?

but surely lowering off peak pricing would result in more usage. and weekends.

but surely lowering off peak pricing would result in more usage. and weekends

Well it would but track maintenance takes place in off-peak hours aka bus replacement service. It used to be that maintenance took place after hours but after Hatfield and contracting out repairs there has been a bit of mission creep such that most weekends the mainline services into/out of London don't run on rails.

How dare they go on strike and inconvenience me, don’t they know how important I am.

Also I’ve not had a pay rise because I’m not in a union and never bothered to be join one but I now begrudge others getting a pay rise though