Forum menu
Wrecker doesn't agree
I do actually, you are right, the tories would sign if they could but they can't because there would be nothing to sign.
https://home.38degrees.org.uk/page/1/?s=TTIP
Loads of stuff here, this is not a left or right thing its about our right to democracy and for us to elect our own f..kwits to mess up our own countries laws without a set of greedy gits trying make laws to suit there own companies profits and pockets (in secret). I don't agree with much of what successive governments have done since about 1970 but at least I've had the chance to vote for the next lot to mess it up, I don't get to vote on the corporate world.
Would anyone sane be keen?
Well the big German manufacturing companies I suspect are gunning for the Yanks, and would love to have a freer rein in the their market, likewise our banks. There is also some sense and benefit in producing standards that apply to both US and Europe and then forcing the rest of the world to comply.
As for suing governments it already is happening, Vattenfall (Swedish) are taking the Germans to court for shutting their nuclear reactors. TBH if a government came in and shut your business, you'd be pretty p*ssed and want to fight it.
but its not about shutting a business, its about future profits not made by companies because maybe they want the NHS to remain state owned without privatisation. Perhaps a local council wants to remain in control of some of its services and and Big Inc say that stopping us growing or profits so gives us money. Elected bodies should be able to control their own policy without the interference of companies. Its a slippery slop to Robocop type stuff (wow I'm sounding like a nut job).
I don't get it, Wrecker.
You're anti EU, because you're anti ttip, but you'd agree that the more of us there are, the more reasons we have together as a trading block to protect our own interests?
Edit:
Mt, the tories love it because it's a one way street to a totally dismantled state. The robocop scenario isn't that much of an exaggeration of the possible future, they already have private policing in gated communities around the world its only time before some bright spark tenders out their city's law enforcement to G4S.
You're anti EU, because you're anti ttip, but you'd agree that the more of us there are, the more reasons we have together as a trading block to protect our own interests?
No. I am anti TTIP, and increasingly anti EU. Trading blocks are great, but they all seem to cost too much.
TBH, how it's supposed to work is the bigger your trading block, the more power and influence you have. In this case it seems like it's more about getting everyone together so that they're more easily bulldozed.
The EU is the richest trading block in the world, that's why them over there want a bigger piece of the pie. They want to put bloody apples in it and take the lid off too and that's where the problem lies. [/pam ayres]
TTIP is big (distant) government and big companies in a union that kills democracy. At some point very soon (even if we stay in the EU) the commission will wonder why there is a ground swell of anti EU feeling that will really destabilise the whole EU, especially if you add some economic shock. Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal and even the real big one France (how will we solve EU youth unemployment). If it does all go off it will not be pretty for some. I'm starting to sound like a proper nut job UKipper.
I'd point out that I'm stuck in a heart head in/out thing, I don't approve of TTIP though.
If we're all in together, and everyone reaches the conclusion that it's not working at the same time (for example, this TTIP thing), then we'll all sit down and change things together.
If we start leaving one by one, then the leavers will be not working together, until the leavers get themselves organised and create a second EU. That might take a while though - after all it was 1500-odd years between the Western Roman Empire and the EU 🙂
big (distant) government and big companies in a union that kills democracy.
Which is why the media moguls (e.g. Murdoch, Viscount Rothermere) are anti-EU
That's the crux of it for me. Sticking together against business to make things better for the people.
So to summarise - we're ****ed whichever way we vote?
...I'm off to live in a Tee Pee in a remote forest.
...I'm off to live in a Tee Pee in a remote forest.
Not without planning permission you're not 🙂
That's the crux of it for me. Sticking together against business to make things better for the people.
How do you feel when you read that the EU trade commissioner (one of the absolutely top people in the organisation) says that she has no mandate from the european people?
What you want the EU to do is great, but that's not what it's doing and it looks VERY unlikely that it will ever change.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/a6695996.html ]Fabricated by John Hilary, says she[/url] "Although I am very aware, and I spend 80 per cent of my working time trying to address and to listen to the concerns of people[…]the mandate itself can only be changed by the member states. It is not in my hands.
“And from that [...] he has made this, a quote that I haven’t said.”
In brief, the EU commission can only propose and not impose. Which is where the democracy kicks in.
I don't believe a single word that comes out of her mouth personally, but YMMV. If you trust that by pushing TTIP through, that she is doing her best for all of us then you can continue to support her.
How depressing is that - to know that however corrupt and incompetent the EU is, your own government is worse
That pretty much sums up the soft "left" attitude to the EU, ie, we need to stay in the EU to protect us from the British people's voting intentions - by being in the EU we can nullify general election results.
The EU might be overwhelmingly dominated by European conservative governments but they aren't as right-wing and nasty as our own conservatives, supposedly.
This defeatist argument by the Guardian-reading "left" who have given up on attempting significant electoral success is pisspoor for all manner of reasons, including that other European governments are unreliable when it comes to them protecting us from ourselves, since they take as a priority their own national interests first.
.
Anyone thinking of voting to leave the EU so we don't join the TTIP is deluded at best, We are the No.1 supporters of it. We will 100% join if we leave the EU.
You won't be surprised to learn that I don't agree. Far from being "deluded" I consider my views much more realistic.
TTIP is reactionary and regressive. It shifts power away from accountable elected governments into the hands of corporations putting profits before all other considerations. Indeed opposition is so widespread that its successful conclusion is very far from guaranteed.
If however the TTIP stands any chance of success then the most realistic way this is likely to be achieved is via the back door of the fundamentally undemocratic EU, its unelected bureaucrats, a rubber-stamp parliament - which no one pays any attention to, and all shrouded in secrecy of course - away from meaningful public debate.
As my earlier link pointed out :
[EDITED] [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/you-wont-know-this-but-a-very-important-ttip-vote-happened-in-europe-this-week-10380530.html ]You won't know this, but a very important TTIP vote happened in Europe this week[/url]
And contrary to what the defeatist would have you believe right-wing Tories in the UK do not have electoral success guaranteed. Nor do they have a guaranteed carte blanche every time they form a government.
In the last 6 years that the Tories have been in government there has been an unprecedented amount of government U-turns and policy backtracking due to public opposition, including some in the last week.
And 25 years ago a Tory Prime Minister was kicked out of Downing Street despite having a huge majority in Parliament because of widespread opposition to her "flagship" policy.
You are seriously deluding yourself if you think that something as unpopular as TTIP has a 100% guaranteed chance of being implemented by a Tory UK government, as you claim.
Oh come on you could have got more guardian reading soft lefty references in a post of that length
I am disappointed in you, comrade
That said good posts
You are the only person criticising the EU whose opinions I actually read and value - I expect a witheringly sarcastic reply for that admission.
Why would this release make anyone vote leave?
The US prefers to deal with trading blocks not individual countries - and if this is the best the EU can deliver imagine how bad the deal with (obvious caveat aside) a single country would look
Be careful what you wish for...
Well Cameron is still all for TTIP
The prime minister said it would take “political courage to get it over the line” but the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) would be good for British people.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal
"back of the queue if out of EU"
"no deal for 10 years"
"we only deal with trading blocks"
Mmm horseshit
canny say I think TTIP is a good idea, sounds suspicious to say the least. But the idea that it would be somehow a land of honey were britain to negotiate trade deals all on it's own with every country in the world is insane. Britains bargaining power out of the EU would be pretty low, imo.
Britains bargaining power out of the EU would be pretty low, imo.
We are the 5th richest country in the World with a massive trade deficit - we are everyone's ideal trade partner
Hence why Obama said at the back of the queue eh.
Jamby we gets your politics and views on this issue but please dont pretend, for it makes you look foolish, that the UK alone is somehow more desirable than the EU.
It just sabre rattling Brexiter patriotic emotive pleads w there rather than reality.
They can all trade with us now but dont.
if this is the best the EU can deliver
Problem is this is probably the best they can deliver but it is not what the citizens want as uts terrible.
Better to have no deal than this.
Anyone thinking of voting to leave the EU so we don't join the TTIP is deluded at best, We are the No.1 supporters of it. We will 100% join if we leave the EU.As much as I don't like many EU policies and practices, leaving will not be good for this country.
Anyone who thinks we won't sign up to something like TTIP or worse if we're out of the EU is frankly a moron.
Dodgy Dave is getting annoyed now, he's even starting statements with "Look" to emphasis his patience is running thin.
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/04/david-cameron-political-courage-ttip-trade-deal
It's ok, all this idle speculation is wrong and TTIP is ace, says the government.
[Url= https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/119659?reveal_response=yes ]Linky[/url]
TTIP = NWO
unelected bureaucrats and a rubber-stamp parliament? sorry, were we talking about westminster?
who'd have thought the americans can sniff blood in the water from a shaky EU economy and are trying to strong-arm the best deal they can?
the civil servants of the EU will try to get the best they can.
whether or not the elected politicians on either side sign it off is a very different matter.
Anyone who thinks we won't sign up to something like TTIP or worse if we're out of the EU is frankly a moron.
Obama said we'd be at the back of the queue (now 10 years long ?) and the US wouod focus on large trading blocks - was he lying ? 😉
Hard to know what the US position will be post the November Election, if Trump wins I can see him ripping up TTIP and starting again, he's not going to sign a "Democrat Trade Deal"
Oi Jambas, turn the computer off and enjoy the countryside. You've got the weather we missed!
Del - Memberunelected bureaucrats and a rubber-stamp parliament? sorry, were we talking about westminster?
Well obviously not. The Parliament in Westminster can propose its own legislation unlike the Strasbourg Parliament which can only rubber-stamp proposals put to it by unelected bureaucrats.
Did you really not know that?
it does take elected officials to pass things in to law, right?
I think I've made the point quite clearly.
good for you. 🙄
Its not Americans, Euro's or UK.
Its Business vs Average Jo and right now the only ones making any noise are Lefties, Greens and the French which probably sits uneasily with the anti EU mob.
The UK Government response is notable that it only measures the impact in ££ and presumes that any additional money from this will be distributed equally across all residents.
..and yes our own parliament is beyond saving, the same people who are proposing this deal have got too strong a control on it to let democracy ruin the game.