Seeing as this is getting the usual trolling as everything gets on here I've deleted it, I'm not even sure why I keep my subscription going.
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Why do you need to drive to a local walk?!
If you're going often enough to notice it'll almost certainly be worth getting a membership
Awww come on OP what's your beef?
National Trust taking over a previously busy free to use car park and putting in a Pay and Display machine that takes neither cash or card, don't mind paying but forcing everyone to use an app or get a NT card just stinks. The lane leading to car park is now rammed with cars parked on the verges and there were no cars using the car park. This is the second car park in the area they've reduced the options for paying in.
When you say ‘taken over’ - who owns / owned it?
It was previously managed by Seven Trent Water but the whole area is part of an estate owned by NT but outside of the Calke Abbey grounds, I doubt any NT members use it because they have free use of the Calke Abbey car park about half a mile away with a cafe and toilets etc. They removed the pay by card option from another nearby car park when they added the machines that took NT membership cards, they are just crapping on the locals to try an up sell NT membership or stop people avoiding the £7 per adult fee to get into Calke Abbey grounds if they are in a car.
What reasons are there to use those car parks other than to use their facilities?
putting in a Pay and Display machine that takes neither cash or card
This isn't a national trust thing. It's happening everywhere. Loads of previously free parking round here is now pay by app, eg Ringo. They also add a "convenience" charge. I suspect it'll happen more and more so it's a system that isn't going anywhere.
So, not a Calke walk?
Cash is dead, can't remember when I last used it. But it does seem a bit daft to not have card payment for parking when for everything else it is ubiquitous now.
they are just crapping on the locals to try an up sell NT membership
I don't think it's deliberate.
Moving away from relatively expensive card payments, they will be a charged a standing charge, a fee for each payment and % commission. The app will probably be way more cost effective for them.
If you are "local" why are you driving there?
We are National Trust members, and I'm pretty sure that the every machine that I have used in the last few years has no cash or card payment option, just a "Scan your Membership QR Code here" thing, or a Ringo reference that can be used either with an App or by calling the number if you don't want to/can't use the app.
What you are describing sounds pretty standard for NT places, and pretty standard for any other paid car park.
It seems like the options are either join the NT, pay by App/Phone, or park somewhere else?
Edit: the most frustrating thing is that the QR scanners on the car park machines don't seem to be able to read a QR code on a phone screen, so you need to remember the physical card to park. Using a QR on a phone screen usually works for the handheld scanners in the receptions/proprieties etc
Free car parks are great of course but you can’t really moan about having to pay to use a facility which needs to be maintained!
this is the only thing I don’t really understand - do you literally get a paper ticket when you use your NT card? Surely the entire benefit of membership cards and/or online/app payment for them is they no longer need to pay for & maintain actual ticket machines? In which case (as long as there’s phone reception there) then it’s perfectly acceptable to require payment via app/SMS etc, even my dad in his 80s can figure that out! But if they [i]are[/i] still printing tickets from an actual machine then, no, that’s madness!They removed the pay by card option from another nearby car park when they added the machines that took NT membership cards
I don’t think it’s necessarily trolling btw just because (most) people seem to disagree with you… you might just not be as 100% right with your assessment of the situation as you think you are…
this seems like a silly system - why do they need machines at all? Can’t they just maintain a database of members’ reg numbers, or send you a physical parking permit with the QR code on it?the most frustrating thing is that the QR scanners on the car park machines don’t seem to be able to read a QR code on a phone screen, so you need to remember the physical card to park.
Well we did have stickers whcih were the ticket but no idea if we still do. They day I need a phone to pay will be the day of a very rude letter to NT. Why take my bloody phone for a day out?
This isn’t a national trust thing. It’s happening everywhere. Loads of previously free parking round here is now pay by app, eg Ringo. They also add a “convenience” charge. I suspect it’ll happen more and more so it’s a system that isn’t going anywhere.
I’m no luddite, but I must admit this is bloody annoying. Because it assumes one always has their phone with them at all times. I often leave my phone at home if going out. I also lost my phone whilst staying in central London over Christmas. That was fun driving around looking for it whilst not being able to park/avoid the CC.
this seems like a silly system – why do they need machines at all? Can’t they just maintain a database of members’ reg numbers, or send you a physical parking permit with the QR code on it?
It does feel a bit silly, but I think that they must have their reasons for doing it that way.
Members used to get a car park sticker permit posted to them each year, but they are trying to go paperless by reducing the mailshots. It was also a pain if taking a different car, or going in a car with a non member.
One to two extra envelopes and plastic stickers a year doesn't feel like much, but as an example, my wife and I are lifetime members, and would get two stickers per year. So would probably expect 120+ annual car park passes to be posted out. The admin involved in that soon starts to eat away at what we paid for the lifetime membership. There are a lot of members.
I guess a QR code that could be put in the window and read by the parking warden might be one way of doing it, but they might be a theft risk. Also, if there are shorter visits during which the warden doesn't happen to stop by and scan the QR window codes then there is no record of visitor numbers, and potential lost revenue.
One benefit of scanning your card at each car park that you visit, is that the property/estate gets a small grant from the NT central pot for everyone that scans in which helps the local team to fund maintenance. We have plenty of NT places near us that I regularly cycle and run through. I'll occasionally scan my card in the car park machines even if I don't need parking as it means that the estate benefits from my visit, as otherwise I'd just be passing through unknown to them and with no benefit to them.
I’m no luddite, but I must admit this is bloody annoying. Because it assumes one always has their phone with them at all times. I often leave my phone at home if going out. I also lost my phone whilst staying in central London over Christmas. That was fun driving around looking for it whilst not being able to park/avoid the CC
You could have just as easily have lost your wallet and not had access to either your cash or bank cards. Or even lost your car keys.
They day I need a phone to pay will be the day of a very rude letter to NT.
This is inevitable. For the NT and most other organisations/activities/events. You are going to have a busy pen for the rest of your life,
Why take my bloody phone for a day out?
Why not? Phones really aren't that big. Just put it in a bag, or a pocket. You can even leave it turned off. No point in making your life more difficult than it needs to be for the sake of stubbornness.
Cash is dead, can’t remember when I last used it. But it does seem a bit daft to not have card payment for parking when for everything else it is ubiquitous now.
This. I have no problem with car parks, especially rural ones, having no way to pay by cash. But those ones that are pay by a specific third party app only (and they’re appearing anywhere) can get in the sea. Contactless payments work with nearly all cards, phones, watches even… if you want to use technology to avoid the hassle of cash, support paying with a flash of a card or device… none of this trying to get a signal to download an app, sign up, transfer funds… an utter pain for everyone, not just the older technophobic retired folk who are so often the main users of rural car parks close to short easy bimbles.
What reasons are there to use those car parks other than to use their facilities?
It's a known local dogging spot.
The lane leading to car park is now rammed with cars parked on the verges and there were no cars using the car park.
That lane has been an absolute nightmare with bad parking for years, nothing to do with the pay by phone parking.
no reason at all they [I]have[/I] to post out 2x stickers per year though? You get one or two when you join, then request more if and when you need them. I'm going to go out on a limb and say smashing a car window to steal a car park permit is a very niche crime, especially when it can easily be cancelled & re-issued!One to two extra envelopes and plastic stickers a year doesn’t feel like much, but as an example, my wife and I are lifetime members, and would get two stickers per year. So would probably expect 120+ annual car park passes to be posted out. The admin involved in that soon starts to eat away at what we paid for the lifetime membership. There are a lot of members.I guess a QR code that could be put in the window and read by the parking warden might be one way of doing it, but they might be a theft risk.
Or just have no stickers at all, and just input your reg via their app or web page, and update it temporarily in the occasional instance that you want to travel in the car of a non-member.
I just feel that yes, they're trying to cut down on paper/plastic/postage costs & modernise, but they aren't [I]really[/I] thinking ahead and actually utilising modern technology to the fullest. I know OP said he didn't want to have to take his phone out for a walk, which is perfectly fine, but I think he's very much in the minority & actually the vast majority of people [I]do[/I] have their phones with them most of the time.
In your example of scanning the QR code to check-in with a venue, there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't just have a button on their app on your phone or watch that you press to do the same thing! Then more money goes towards actual maintenance/improvements and not just to maintain the machines that process the payments!
The parking apps can be a complete PITA in remote areas. I've never managed to get a signal at the New Dungeon Ghyll one in Langdale, you end up having to traipse into the pub to use their Wifi just to pay for parking.
you’d have the same problem with a machine that took contactless payments though, as they need a connection to the bank, so it’s not an app-specific problem.The parking apps can be a complete PITA in remote areas. I’ve never managed to get a signal at the New Dungeon Ghyll one in Langdale
The obvious and easy solution is simply allow a 24hr grace period for the payment so people can do it when they get home.
Why take my bloody phone for a day out?
Why [b]not[/b] take the phone?!
I'm struggling to see any downside of taking the thing but many many downsides to NOT taking it!
I'll agree with you about app parking though. I hate the way that everyone feels the need to 'curate' an app for absolutely bloody everything.
From the other side of this payment machines are expensive, somewhere between £7k and £13k to install, that's a lot of parking to pay for before you break even. Anything with moving parts has the opportunity to fail, especially if the onsite maintenance is done by somebody who doesn't service machines for a living, changing receipt rolls, clearing coin jams and dealing with the stupid things the public do for example.
Card only is much better, lot less to go wrong or be broken by the public or the carpark owner, still needs a decent phone signal and mains power. Getting a SEGOE (ADSL 2 replacement) in is expensive and means you have to deal with Openreach. You can get 'solar' powered machines but they don't work, not enough quality daylight in the UK to fully charge the batteries during the winter and you can't power the internal heaters from a solar powered machine, means the insides are dripping with condensation in the winter which causes corrosion, electrical faults and makes the receipt paper damp which causes printer issues.
The ideal answer is a combination of phone apps and contactless only payment terminals that don't give paper receipts (email or SMS receipts).
Between 75% and 90% of people pay by card now even on machines that take notes and coins and give change.
At the end of the day on a private car park the owner can do what they want, when you park you enter an enforceable contract, by staying in the car park you are deemed to have agreed to the contract. The terms you've agreed to are usually pay the relatively small parking fee using the methods available or pay a much bigger charge to not follow the rules, or in car park terms a PCN, an invoice for the larger fee, an invoice that is enforceable through the courts which can give you a CCJ if you lose and don't pay.
Your choice, don't like the contract terms, park somewhere else.
Loads of previously free parking round here is now pay by app, eg Ringo.
The thing is that free parking is never actually free - someone somewhere is paying for the upkeep of the car park, even if it’s just emptying the bins and filling the odd pothole. It’s not unreasonable to ask people to pay and frankly Ringo/Pay by Phone/whatever is easier than carrying a bag of change about in the car.
I agree with @zilog6128 that 24h grace is the answer but presumably you need ANPR to log the visit? NCP seems to be increasingly barrierless and ANPR/autopay is a doddle.
I’m no luddite, but I must admit this is bloody annoying.
My parents don't have a smart phone, and I suspect they aren't the only ones. Round here the council car parks are still cash/card.
Nothing worse than trying to download an app in a remote carpark with **** all WiFi
I think you have to balance install/maintenance costs with how busy the car park is. ANPR makes sense for a very popular car park but I think for more remote ones just a sign indicating how to pay online, then maybe send a guy around once or twice a day at different times to check.but presumably you need ANPR to log the visit? NCP seems to be increasingly barrierless and ANPR/autopay is a doddle.
Actually ANPR works on many car parks, a lot cheaper and more efficient than a someone checking windscreen. Compliance levels are much higher and the ANPR pays for itself from the small minority who dont think they need to pay. NCP are quite late to the ANPR world.
Did have a mare in Cornwall a couple of years ago where none of the ANPR cameras liked my completely bog standard, dealer supplied plates 🤦♂️
I know, have been involved with transition from P&D to ANPR locally. It does go wrong though sometimes, for various reasons, so I don't thing it's necessarily a good idea for remote locations (with a barrier etc - if no barrier then I guess less problem as long as you have power or can install solar etc!)Actually ANPR works on many car parks, a lot cheaper and more efficient than a someone checking windscreen.
Worth checking whether you actually have to pay. As far as I understand unless there is a notice stating the consequences of not paying then the payment is effectively an honesty box. This applies to a lot of national park and national trust car parks.
I'm not advocating not paying but if you are local and feel aggrieved by the new system you may be fine just parking up and being wilfully oblivious to parking charges.
Barriers are bad idea in most cases, they are very expensive to install, prone to failing and critically break your car park when they fail. Free flow ANPR is ideal in most cases, the deterrent is the signage and camera. If it stops working, no PCNs but you can still get out of the car park. If you get stuck in the car park, e.g. breakdown, you can still leave and appeal a PCN later, barriers generally take away your right to appeal, bit like clamping (which has been rightly illegal for the last decade).
pretty easy to defeat though - just obscure the numberplates with a bit of strategically placed mud 🤔Free flow ANPR is ideal in most cases, the deterrent is the signage and camera.
Depends if you want to take the risk of being pulled over by the law though? Fine of up to £1000 IIRC.
no risk in the actual car park though I'd have thought... pull over just before arriving, transfer mud from my Nobby Nics to plates, wipe off after leaving 😎Depends if you want to take the risk of being pulled over by the law though? Fine of up to £1000 IIRC.
Theres a problem in the States with people bending their metal plates or even gluing leaves to the plate. In the UK its not a major issue although dirty plates due to all the salt on the road is a problem. Generally the software is pretty good these days, the camera doesn't just take one picture, it usually takes 10 or 15 and compares the results. ANPR is generally pretty good for the motorist as well, to get a PCN you need to be seen entering and leaving, and going in the right direction each time, if the camera isn't working well generally it's only the parking enforcement company that loses out.
This all sounds desperately complicated just to cover every 'what if ' scenario. It's real easy - you have an app, each parking spot has a code. You put the code in the app, set a start time or a time period, and select the correct car reg. if you have more than one car and off you go. If parking man turns up and you ain't registered at that spot, you get a fine
easy peasy.
The problem is people always want all these 'what if' options...
That is incedibly complicated and relies on the public cooperating and having half a brain, many don't, £10 notes rolled up and shoved into coin slots, card readers blocked with pound coins, not being able to put coins in a slot straight, knowing their own number plate, knowing that zeros aren't the same as the letter O.
Paying an attendant is incredibly expensive vs the number of rule breakers they catch, plus people make mistakes, camera systems and back end IT is way more consistent and efficient (with human oversight).
National trust are pricks, never trust them after going to the giant's causeway.
National trust are pricks, never trust them after going to the giant’s causeway.
Did they destroy your trust with the implausible story that a big Northern Irish giant threw some rocks in to the sea to create it?
The terms you’ve agreed to are usually pay the relatively small parking fee using the methods available or pay a much bigger charge to not follow the rules, or in car park terms a PCN, an invoice for the larger fee, an invoice that is enforceable through the courts which can give you a CCJ if you lose and don’t pay.
Your choice, don’t like the contract terms, park somewhere else.
All fine. But “pay by an app that you haven’t got, might not be able to use, and don’t want to engage with” is not a fair equivalent to “pay using your normal non cash payment method”… far from it.
As an aside… this rich editor is a pile of shit. Let us have the choice to use the less smart but actually works editor back please… the forum is basically broken otherwise. Ta.