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Fair enough.
Similarly radical changes in human nature do occur frequently, but are rarely adopted on a global scale.
I admire your optimism. 🙂
I hope it's not misplaced.
Humanity is learning all the time.
Hmmm.
Humanity is certainly CHANGING all the time.
To say that it's learning might be considered a bit of a bold statement, without an awful lot of supporting evidence 😀
1) Modern society is built on capitalism.
2) Capitalism relies on constant growth.
3) The planet is a finite resource.
Reconcile these facts, and you'll get the answer....
zokes - your reduction blames the wrong cause.
On a planet of finite resources, ANY consumption will tend to a complete depletion of resources REGARDLESS of the rate of change of that consumption. Also capitalism is not the same as the market allocation of resources - you're conflating two economic principals.
If anything the market allocation of resources is one mechanism by which substitution of scarce resources might extend the time before we run out of everything.
If I am alive, which I think I am - I've had some tea and cereal so that's a good sign, does that make me part of "the current generation" or at mid forties am I part of the past generation if so when did I pass?
your reduction blames the wrong cause.
I think not.
We need to consume less. Every time we do so, it's called recession, and papers talk about the end of society as we know it. Governments who previously called for prudence and for people to save a little nest egg provide stimulus to get us consuming more again.
The proof of this is that it's mostly countries who've reached the stage of population stagnation or decline that seem to struggle the most compared to the boom days of the 60s. The population decline always seems to be reported as a bad thing by economists on the news, whilst it's blatantly obvious that the very reason we have the issues we're now facing is that there are too many people for the planet to support at current rates of consumption.
On a planet of finite resources, ANY consumption will tend to a complete depletion of resources REGARDLESS
Unless it's consumed in a sustainable manner - food is the best example of this, but also anything that grows, really (wood / paper etc). Using less energy per capita would move us away from the one absolutely finite resource we do use - fossil energy. Apart from that, with due care, most ecosystems have the resilience to serve our needs if managed effectively.
I use 100W incandescent lightbulbs, cos they're three for a pound down Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St market,
If only you did the sums for this, you would see just how much money your 'cheap' bulbs may well be costing you over and above the modern alternative. Often the consumer only sees the ticket price and doesn't look at the through life cost of anything.
To say that it's learning might be considered a bit of a bold statement, without an awful lot of supporting evidence
We've progressed loads. We don't burn witches any more, we don't have slaves, we (mostly) don't think black people are sub-human, that kind of thing. Most countries educate their kids regardless of their background, most will support you if you are out of work. Invading other countries to make your own bigger is generally frowned upon, as is slaughtering their populations wholesale (and yes I know about Iraq etc but that really is nothing compared to what used to go on). We don't make ritual human sacrifices to appease gods much these days. And so on.
We need to consume less
We need to consume fewer [b]material resources[/b] yes. Economies could in theory grow whilst reducing material consumption, I think.
If only you did the sums for this, you would see just how much money your 'cheap' bulbs may well be costing you over and above the modern alternative. Often the consumer only sees the ticket price and doesn't look at the through life cost of anything.
Alas CFL thing was at bit of a PR disaster with fantastically over-inflated claims on light-output and longevity.
Mind you 90% of the arguments against not using them are pretty spurious too.
CFLs vary wildly by brand too.
I'm not talking about taking their claims at face value at all. I've done the sums myself, with reduced lifetimes. Still makes sense to modernise for most.
we don't have slaves
Yes we do, it's called delocalised labour or in europe minimum wages.
I use 100W incandescent lightbulbs, cos they're three for a pound down Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St market,
Last time I bought energy saver bulbs, they were 5 for a pound from Sainsburys
Yes we do, it's called delocalised labour or in europe minimum wages.
I don't think you realise quite how bad slavery was.
My Parents and Grandparents were Edwardian & Victorian and their Generation spent most of its effort killing and blowing up each other on a global scale using heaven knows how much fossil fuel in order to achieve their end.
Our lot (baby boomers) following the oil scare of the seventies really brought the green agenda upon the world so if we are talking generations, it was us lot that at least attempted to reverse the problem. OK at the same time a silicon revolution was upon us and there were loads of us and we all wanted more stuff.
We all know sooner or later science will come up with an alternative to fossil fuels and lots of us believe it already has, it's just a conspiracy of the Oil lobbyists keeping it secret.
It is what it is, at our level all we can do is recycle buy electric cars (and bikes if you must) turn lights off try and educate the kids so they can lecture us as in the case of the OP and hope for the best, eventually this rock will get absorbed into the sun when it finishes its cycle and becomes a red giant, so nothing is forever so we might as well do our best to enjoy what we have rather than use it inflict hardship on others is my view and mention to the next generation that they'd better start thinking about finding another planet to **** up at some point in the future..
The planet has been here for 4.5 billion years. We've been here for 100-200,000 years and industrialised for about 200.
The planet has survived eathrquakes, continental drift, floods, meteor strikes, worldwide fires and we think what? A few plastic bags?
Over 90% of all the creatures that have ever lived, are extinct. We didn't kill them.
that's what nature does, it makes things extinct and one day - guess what - it'll be our turn.
Pack up your sh1t folks, we're outta here.
Tazzy's picture of the final scene from Planet of the Apes is instructive. The planet was perfectly O.K. It was people that had changed or gone...
The planet has survived eathrquakes, continental drift, floods, meteor strikes, worldwide fires and we think what? A few plastic bags?
Yes, there have of course been lots of disasters over the millennia. However, lots of people and creatures died. We would like to avoid the death if possible. Especially if we're causing it ourselves by just being greedy and simple minded. That would be a shame wouldn't it?
Like the polar bears, you mean? The ice is disappearing because of global warming.
Global warming is caused by sunspot activity and also a tiny bit by us. It's going to happen anyway.
The upshot will be that killer whales will increase in population size due to the availability of more open water and all those seals available for food that are no longer being hunted by bears.
And so the little green-blue sphere goes bobbing along. One thing replaces another. Tum-te-tum-te tum....
S'funny we were talking about this last night ( post pub bolloxing session 🙂 ) the world could blow up tomorrow, someone was talking about some national park in the states might be a giant volcano!!
Everything seems so fragile
Like the polar bears, you mean?
No, like loads of other things too. Habitat loss is the biggest problem. You know, cutting down trees and stuff. Or is that a natural process too?
Global warming is caused by sunspot activity and also a tiny bit by us
Says you.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so I'd keep quiet if I were you. You're making yourself look stupid.
I wonder what caused all the periods of "global warming" before we started industrialsing in the 19th century? Alien picnickers, perhaps.
You know, cutting down trees and stuff. Or is that a natural process too?
It is for beavers...
talking about some national park in the states [s]might be[/s] is a giant volcano
The Yellowstone caldera. Blows into a E.L.E every 60k years or so. Last blow out - about 60k years ago...
Global warming can have natural causes, and it can have man made causes. Why is this so hard to understand?
Honestly, it's like arguing with a 15 year old who thinks he's the cleverest thing on earth because he's discovered some amazing truth. Except he's too naive to know that all the clever grown ups are ten steps ahead of him.
Who doesn't understand it?
You apparently don't.
People die naturally, but killing them is still bad, isn't it?
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, so I'd keep quiet if I were you. You're making yourself look stupid.
He sounds quite knowledgeable from what I have read so far ?
I don't think you realise quite how bad slavery was.
I think you don't realise how bad living on minmum wage is
Interesdting to see that some still mainly attribute current levels of CO2 to natural cycles and events. The oil companies and power generators really did their propaganda well. However, a look at very long term graphs shows us heading for Creaceous levels with no natural explantion. Not good for humanity.
the plastic bag thing was originally devised in places like Ireland as a means to prevent littering (bags in trees etc), but then got highjacked more widely for other causes (energy, materials etc)
Interestingly it was reported in the waste press that Irelands consumption of plastic film products [i]increased[/i] post plastic bag ban as people started buying more bin liners to replace carriers used for the same purposes..
If only you did the sums for this, you would see just how much money your 'cheap' bulbs may well be costing you over and above the modern alternative. Often the consumer only sees the ticket price and doesn't look at the through life cost of anything.
Well, let's hhave a look shall we...
Cheap bulbs from Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market; the remnants of a load that have already bin made and imported into the UK. So might as well use em up tbh. Otherwise what do we do with them? Just lob 'em into landfill? Perfectly good bulbs?
No. Because that would just be stupid.
Last time I bought energy saver bulbs, they were 5 for a pound from Sainsburys
What, 100w equivalent [u]dimmable [/u]bulbs? I don't think so.
Yopu can get free 40+60w equivalent ES ones from the local council. They're crap for anything more than a table lamp or cupboard. I want to see what I'm doing, not go blind cos of eyestrain.
See, I have thought about it all. The cheap incandescent bulbs from Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market have cost me a pound for the 3 I've used, plus a few quid for the leccy they have used, which is mostly a lot less than full power as I only have them up full whack if I need to read something/see what I'm doing propply.
Yeah, I know they cost more to run/use more power/kill more polar bears, but do you drive a car? I don't so be quiet. Mt carbon footprint is probbly still a good bit lower than yorn.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/technology-video/8576593/Oldest-light-bulb-still-burning-after-110-years.html ]Elfinsafety's lightbulb yesterday[/url]
I don't think you realise quite how bad slavery was.
I think you don't realise how bad living on minmum wage is
Probbly not quite as bad as slavery, Juan...
Interestingly it was reported in the waste press that Irelands consumption of plastic film products increased post plastic bag ban as people started buying more bin liners to replace carriers used for the same purposes..
Probably a better idea TBH, the plastic used to make bin liners is designed to be broken down in a landfill environment (like black bin bags). The carrier bags shops give you are designed for a different purpose, so if everyone continued to use them as dog poo bags, bin liners etc... then there would bags full of this waste sitting around in landfills not breaking down because they're were all sealed up nicely in a Tesco bag!
Tesco baygs disintegrate after a while. They crumble and fall apart.
Tesco baygs disintegrate after a while. They crumble and fall apart.
They have stopped making those now as they were (and other like them) the negatively affecting polymer quality in recycled films.
Incidentally, did the OP every come back?
industrialised for about 200.
Which was when the manmade damage REALLY began. You do know that something like 97% of the scientists involved in climate-related study agree on the causes?
Fred - your dimmers will probably use the same electricity whether dimmed or not. Your personal vanity is to have dimmer switches which as you say you don't have fully on much of the time. You comment on 40w & 60w bulbs, but not on those equivalent to your personal choice of 100w - get the proper bulbs then.
Your 'few quid' for the electric would be a few quid less. As I highlighted, you don't see the whole cost, just what you pay up front. You used to be good at defending your corner on here - this isn't a good example of your work.
I read as far as the words "soda bottles"
Whilst I am interested in green issues, I'm not interested in recollections of a shared youth that I didn't share with some [b]american[/b]
Also not sure that [b]americans[/b] are in any position to be telling us how they 've really been green all along.
Tesco baygs disintegrate after a while. They crumble and fall apart.
True, wasn't that down to UV light? Doubt you'd get much of that in a landfill site!
Ok buy me a 100W equivalent dimmable energy saving bulb and I'll start using that, then.
Until then, I'll just use the stock of incandescent 100W bulbs what I bought from Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market until they're all gone. I'm not going out faffing about to buy bloody expensive ES bulbs.
Your 'few quid' for the electric would be a few quid less.
S'like Deore v XT, innit? 😉
Incandescent 100W bulbs from Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market offer me the quality of light I want, at an extremely low price. It would probbly take several years for the ES version to actually provide me with any real money saving over the Incandescent 100W bulbs from Steve's Bestsellers in Chrisp St Market. 🙂
Do you drive a car?
Falling apart isn't the same as biodegrading. You just end up with millions of tiny pieces of plastic in the food chain.
Ok buy me a 100W equivalent dimmable energy saving bulb and I'll start using that, then
They sell them at our B&Q Elf. And Google returns tons of results. They are quite readily available.
And let's face it, dimmability isn't an essential.
So if I go to B+Q, then that's two pounds seventy in bus fares, plus the cost of the bulb. If I order online, then it's extra carbon for delivery vayns and packaging and stuff.
This 'energy saving' duzzunt seem to be saving me either energy or money. 😐
dimmability isn't an essential.
Yes it is. Is your car essential?
People die naturally, but killing them is still bad, isn't it?
I dunno, Woppit might be the exception that proves the rule here. Anyway, doesn't he believe in god and such, so surely the world's only a few thousand years old and there were no dinosaurs?
Anthropogenic global warming is very real. You will find precious few credible scientists who deny the theory. You will find plenty who have good questions to ask about its magnitude, and most of these questions arise from how the models project the true unknowns - natural attenuation vs self-reinforcing mechanisms.
Most of the climate change episodes recorded through the geological record point to sudden (on a geological timescale) changes in atmospheric chemistry. What, precisely, do you consider our manipulation of the atmosphere for the bast 250 years to be?
In any case, for the deniers (who are very different from the true skeptics) I leave you with this:
[img] 
[/img]
Sorry, cheap snipe:
And let's face it, dimmability isn't an essential.
Fred spends most of his life on here playing up to be particularly dim, so in his case, it probably is 😆
Yeah but I can turn the brightness up whenever I want, Zokes. You, sadly, do not appear to have such control... 😐