... and my point is proved.
Forums in general are a dying art, I miss em so much, this for all its not what it was is still one of the stronger survivors. Good forums (and mailing lists!) have made my life so much better, and I include this one for sure. Every platform does at least some things better and some things worse than others but nothing else has replaced a good strong forum for me
... and my point is proved.
Blimey, it's hard to imagine that Cougar could have done a better job proving it! 🤣
I agree with 13thfloormonk's earlier comment that politics is mostly punters venting how much they hate various politicians.
The political threads used to be both more interesting and useful imo because at one time there was a genuine diversity of political opinions, and as scotroutes points out there was much more "banter". I could engage politically with Tory supporters such as Stoner, CaptainFlashHeart, and even Labrat, in a perfectly friendly manner despite a huge political gulf. Now tolerance levels, certainly towards Tories, are practically non-existent and mefty seems to be the last Tory supporter to have left and closed the door behind him. STW is all the poorer for it, echo chambers really aren't healthy.
But I wouldn't exaggerate the role of political threads on the fortunes of STW, I think I am right in saying that there are only two currently active, the UK government and Nigel Farage threads (unless you include the Donald Trump thread) so they are very easy to ignore. Although I appreciate that ignoring them might be a problem for someone with a genuine interest in politics. I certainly avoid some political threads because the overwhelming consensus makes suggesting an alternative opinion completely pointless and will only lead to personal abuse and accusations of trolling. The Brexit thread is an obvious but not unique example.
When it comes to anything involving current affairs or anything remotely political, it’s the small matter of the same 5 or 6 sprit-crushingly tedious dullards who regard anyone who isn’t Jeremy Corbyn to be a fascist and who all gang up to shout down anyone who dares to disagree with their unbelievably blinkered and narrow-minded worldview
It’s not even worth posting on any of those threads any more, due to the utterly Joyless, humourless, sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier-than-though, virtue-signalling ****s all competing in their Taliban-esque way, for some inexplicable reason, to signal how idealogically pure they are .
It’s not even worth taking the piss out of them any more as it flies about ten miles over their head and they’re just permanently angry and unpleasant
*awaits flaming from said 5 or 6 mind numbingly boring ‘warriors for justice’*
And a zealot states his opinion as fact without a hint of irony.
All true believers of STW must bow to the mighty Python or be cast out!
Seriously, I know you're mates with the owners so much of the criticism you receive gets deleted and the offenders get banned but your lack of self-awareness is just comical at this point.
Why do you want to be called Loretta, Stan?
Seriously, I know you're mates with the owners so much of the criticism you receive gets deleted and the offenders get banned but your lack of self-awareness is just comical at this point
I rest my case, yr’onour
So you're not mates with the owners?
Fairly simple yes or no question that requires no memes but if you don't want to answer I guess you could always just post a picture instead.
In answer to your question… no
I just go out riding from time to time with my friends who happen to write for STW
Deleted posts, people banned? At my behest? Seriously…. Get a grip.?
How’s life in your bunker? Are you all stocked up for when the balloon goes up? Have you got enough lentils?
And a zealot states his opinion as fact without a hint of irony.
pot kettle and black comes to mind. IMO no one gets special "favours" Certainly not Binners, Ernie and me all of whom have been accused of it
In answer to your question… no
I just go out riding from time to time with my friends who happen to write for STW
Deleted posts, people banned? Seriously…. Get a grip. Have you got enough lentils?
I get warnings and posts deleted for two reasons on this forum. One is when an out and out bigot comes along and I literally call them a ****.
The other is when I call either you or dazh out on your dross.
It's easy to think you're the belle of the ball when the bouncers are chucking anyone who challenges your nonsense down the stairs and out the door.
Could the mods not introduce a rule that being tediously opinionated results in a ban? Might help the general tone of discussion
Might result in there being very few people left…
Everyone has an opinion about something, it’s just that some people don’t like others having opinions that contradict their own. 🤷🏼♂️
pot kettle and black comes to mind. IMO no one gets special "favours" Certainly not Binners, Ernie and me all of whom have been accused of it
I've had several robust exchanges of opinion with you and ernie over the years. Never been an issue.
I start getting into it with dazh and binners and suddenly my posts are getting deleted and I'm getting warnings.
It's OK though. They just sometimes go out riding with friends who happen to write for STW.
One is when an out and out bigot comes along and I literally call them a ****.
No - you make accusations of bigotry where none exist and are really nasty about it. You called me a bigot repeatedly. Its an opinion not a fact anyway most of the time. It was not robust exchanges with no issue. It was unpleasant personal vindictive attacks. Maybe that wasn't your intent but it was how it came over
No - you make accusations of bigotry where none exist and are really nasty about it. You called me a bigot repeatedly. Its an opinion not a fact anyway most of the time
OK, I don't remember calling you a bigot. I remember we've been through it a few times on trans issues. You've got fairly similar opinions to my Mum and Dad and I haven't called you anything I haven't called them. And I haven't said they are anything.
But yes, I have robustly challenged yours and your friends opinions in exactly the same way I challenge my Mum and Dad's.
From what I remember, you were the one to turn this around and say I was calling you and your friends bigots. Not me saying you were a bigot.
It was not a robust challenge - it was a complete nasty over reaction with straight into name calling. Nor was it just that one set of posts. Transphobe is a bigot. Same as racist is a bigot. Your only answer to questions was to shout down the questioner and call them a bigot
I am only posting this in the hope you might be a bit more self aware. You do what you accuse others of seemingly oblivious to this
Well, for what it's worth I don't think you're a bigot. If I called you a bigot in the past all I can say is I was maybe applying black and white thinking to things which is something I sometimes do.
Sorry about that. I honestly think we agree on more than we disagree on.
Oh god it's one of those existential threads again isn't it? Shut up pissing and whinging you decrepit ****s.
I used to run - and moderate etc - what was then the UK's busiest outdoor forum, which 'we' - mostly the people who ran the company that owned it, effectively killed by fixating on technical features and ill-advised 'upgrades' that the users didn't actually want or need and thanks to numerous technical glitches, made the whole thing harder and harder to use. At base you just want the forum to be a slick, easy to use vehicle for a community based around a shared interest and, over time, a network of online friendships rather than a complicated, 'gameified' mess that came between users and their conversations.
They're fragile things forums, slow to grow and easy to kill, like a slightly needy houseplant. But when they work, they're brilliant. It's not exactly rocket science to point out that there are multiple alternatives to forum/fora/whatever these days in the digital not-workspace. FB, ****ter or whatever it's called this week etc, etc. Pretty much every surviving forum I can think of - here, ukc, pistonheads, mumsnet etc - is a legacy survivor from digital before times.
The closest alternative I've found are specialist groups on FB. One of the joys of the wirehaired pointer pup that's currently holding us hostage in our own home, is finding a digital home on the GWP UK FB group, which is full of people who share a love of a ridiculous and special dog, so not so different from here.
I've never been a particularly prolific poster here and I'm not particularly interested in political threads / polemics / etc, but I've always found it a friendly, supportive, entertaining place that occasionally steps from the digital into the real world - eg when scotroutes very kindly bailed me out when I couldn't find the adaptors I needed for a borrowed indoor trainer. I try to be helpful when I can in sort of karmic way and in turn others have helped me. It's a place I value, which is why I have a digital subscription.
I also try not to spend too much effort worrying about it being 'not what it used to be' or 'dying' - the fact that people do is testament to the affection they have for the place and the people. I try to take it for what it is and all I really ask is that it's reasonably quick and easy to use, that I can do the simple things intuitively and post images and the occasional video. I have a journalist's picky obsession with semantics, but that's just the way I'm wired and it's icing rather than cake.
Ultimately it's kind of remarkable that this forum is still here at all and it's sometimes worth remembering and valuing that rather than nit-picking at the inevitable downsides. I'll stop going on now.
Flip me, that went sideways suddenly. How does this thread get embroiled in an argument about bigotry and favouritism?
That's the STW way, I suppose 🤣 🤣
Anyway, what I actually came here to say is that I don't think that it is dying compared to other forums.
Posting slowed dramatically during the great reboot, but I think that's picking up again. I can't remember when STW has "just worked", it's always had technical problems to a greater or lesser extent.
A contemporaneous problem has been that many threads seem to revolve around the unexpected actions of one man. It's difficult to discuss that which cannot be analysed, which is why I've given up posting on the Ukraine and other threads
As to the mag, several people on here are clearly either road, or gravel, or both. I haven't owned a MTB for years and I suspect many others don't, which might be worth a poll
Long may it keep going
Been here since 2005, used to be my go to place for advice and general forum chat. I think it’s partly the forums nature has changed and partly the users have changed. Mark makes a case for the site being healthy, but do I not remember figures of a million visitors a week?
It’s not even worth posting on any of those threads any more, due to the utterly Joyless, humourless, sanctimonious, self-righteous, holier-than-though, virtue-signalling ****s all competing in their Taliban-esque way, for some inexplicable reason, to signal how idealogically pure they are .
When I read this I thought binners was taking the piss out of himself in an amusingly self aware way. Apparently not.
Flip me, that went sideways suddenly. How does this thread get embroiled in an argument about bigotry and favouritism?
Because a couple of the very people everyone is pissed off with joined the thread (and before anyone asks I'm not looking at binners or tj who whilst both can be a little verbose at times do manage to add some interests with their posts).
There are four websites I visit every day, two are forums and the other two news pages. It's probably best described as muscle memory, or habit, I pick up a device and go through the four sites and then move on.
I rarely post, and truthfully I'm much more of a consumer than contributor - notwithstanding that I'm much less likely to post now. There are some very clever people who post some very well written content, and I enjoy reading it, but they are at an age (much like me) where I don't think they are open to having their opinion challenged. They engage in the thread but don't listen much anymore, just talk, and cement their view. I think that's pretty normal as we age to be honest, but it doesn't make for a good forum...
I don't know if the general forum is left, right, or centrist, I do know that that the strongest opinions are very much from the left and I'm saying that because it permeates through a lot of threads, not just obvious politic discussion.
I know a lot of people in the real world who used to post (well, about six) who don't post anymore because they never wanted to start an argument when expressing an opinion, but it's what they felt like it turned in to - SanctimonyTrackWorld, as my riding mates call it.
Too many threads get derailed by personal handbags that nobody else can be arsed to read (maybe like the above, although far from the worst example, which could be taken to DM), and we got all serious along the way, Friday Kylie being an example. I wasn't particularly a fan of the thread, but was it really that bad? Could the girls not have just had their own? EDL thread on a Friday used to write my playlist for the weekend.
It's not dead, could be dying, but I'll be here until the end and will miss it if it goes. Maybe I should post more when I have an opinion and just accept it'll rile somebody even if that's not the intention, and just ignore the response. Maybe we all should.
The Internet forum where there's a genuine exchange has become an uncomfortable place for people with uncomfortable views and conspiracy theory fans. There's a genuine exchange here rather than just posting shite with impunity on X etc. where people can't be arsed to argue/debate. Going through a few of the topics that have animated this forum over the years.
Climatic change: dig out old threads on the subject (which I won't as it would require getting an old hard drive out of the loft, plugging it in and hunting through the bookmarks) and some of the members that aren't around anymore posted some pretty off the wall stuff. A climate sceptic would get short thrift these days, there's something of a concensus. The only debate is around how much people are prepared to do about it on a personal level.
Brexit: There are three surviving vocal Brexiteers and two aren't very vocal anymore. That was quite a clear out, some disappeared and some have changed names; would you stick around here after promoting Brexit the way some did? You'd have to be very thick skinned. The survivor thinks we're trolling him about it apparently.;)
The right wingers. It depends on how far right but there come a point when people who ride bikes (as opposed to driving Range Rovers with hunting dogs and gun case bolted in the back) are likely to find some views unpleasant. The paper clip salesman did his best to trash the BM forum under multiple logins and bragged about it on another forum. You can only do that for as long as it takes people to work it all out. As for 5th, THM etc. it wasn't really banter was it. Stoner probably has better things to do because I don't remember him being hounded off.
The macho, misogynistic, ****ing material threads. Again a throw over from BM from the same "members". Good riddance
The relationship threads: sometimes I'd have loved to hear the other side of the story. People have understood what Cougar said decades ago, once you've put something into the Internet you can't get it out again. And as the active community gets smaller it gets too easy to guess who's behind the new login.
So there's not much left to talk about apart from bikes, MTBs, gravel, tents, camping, holidays, health, walking, skiing, climbing, cars, world events, stuff in the press, stuff on TV, stuff on the Net, DIY, dogs, pets, swimming, running, religion (cough), clothes, shoes, guitars, basses, cutlery, jewelery, art, canal boating, music, films... .
I'll stick around for all that for as long as I'm welcome and feel the need to sit in front of a computer. Since the demise of BM this is the only part of the Anglo-Saxon web I contribute to so thanks to you all for the inspiration.
Last rode an MTB on Friday.
I've used forums for years, for different interests and a lot of the themes, arguments and issues on this thread are common to all of them. @scotroutes' comment above struck home for me:
Maybe we need a big STW event where we can all get together, shake hands, share a few drinks and generally melt away some of the barriers.
I used to belong to a large single marque motorcycle forum, probably about the same number of members as here. Regional and national rideouts and occasional weekenders were a thing. Many real friendships developed - often amongst the least likely people who you'd never have put together because of their online persona, different backgrounds and even (god forbid) politics!
The whole nature of forum interactions improves radically, when posters have met other posters IRL, maybe even had a beer with them. I know there are plenty on here who do know each other IRL, but there are I suspect many more, me included who don't. As far as I know there are none who live locally.
I did meet @nickingsley for a gravel ride and post ride beer recently and discovered that unsurprisingly he was a great bloke and we got on well. I suspect most of you are lovely people too. Maybe a one-off STW weekender, camping in a field somewhere central and having a few sociable beers isn't such a bad idea?
I think there are multiple issues leading to a reduction in posting
Too many of us have been here too long - we have had all the debates already. take climate change - we all have as much info as we need so little to be learned on a climate change post. Opinions have been formed so no minds to change, people with strong views get frustrated with this leading to arguments
A general reduction in fora - no new recruits coming in
Technical issues - ok so its running reasonably well now but for many weeks it ran very poorly - I almost gave up on my NZ tour thread because of that. How many folk did give up?
As it gets smaller louder voices gain prominence and this can be off-putting. I know from previous similar threads folk have found my input off-putting ( Is off putting a word? Or two? or hyphenated?)
I also believe there is a conflict between what Mark and co want this place to be and what the majority of forum posters want
I have very much had my life enriched by here and would be sad to see it fail
I also believe there is a conflict between what Mark and co want this place to be and what the majority of forum posters want
and the difference is 🤔
Yep good to meet up and must do it again sometime, busy lives 🙂
My number one reason for not coming on is technical difficulties. It is such a a palaver to try and get in, open a thread, write a reply and post it that I just gave up. This is the first time I've come on for a couple of weeks. I can't think of any other site that seizes my phone.
It has been an excellent source of info for all manner of things, and I've tried to give advice freely in return (yes yes, free advice on the Internet), but there is a wide range of expertise on here, and with care you can sort the wheat from the chaff
It's also been great entertainment over the years, since 2004 for me.
Yes there are some bellends on here, we all know who they are. You don't have to read their name to know who the poster is.
Over the years, my opinions have been swayed and Changed by what I've read here. It's made me go away and research something. That's impressive.
I also believe there is a conflict between what Mark and co want this place to be and what the majority of forum posters want
and the difference is 🤔
I believe most of us want a fully functioning forum and have little interest in the rest of the site. Its the integration with the rest of the site that is the root cause of the technical issues from the little I understand. Mark and co want to be publishers. Magazines are also a disappearing market
I’m using it about 5% of the amount i used to. In fact, I’m probably going to cancel my subscription also..don’t really read the mag anymore.
The new forum it WAAAY to complicated for my little brain, runs slowly, and just frustrates me. Coupled with me kinda dumping social media, posting MUCH less about me and things I’ve done, and not really being too interested in other’s activities (!), mean SM isn’t really for me any more.
I’m spending most of my time on YouTube watching people fix stuff! Much more fun!
DrP
Anyway, what I actually came here to say is that I don't think that it is dying compared to other forums.
🤔
Something is either dying or it isn't. It doesn't really matter what others are doing.
Maybe I'll have a falling down style breakdown and call the six out by name
Looks like they are stepping forward voluntarily (or in blissful ignorance?)
I'm more interested in knowing whether anyone on here actually rides MTBs as opposed to collecting them.
Me. I'm just about to head out now for a little pootle in my happy place.
I wouldn't mind the pointless political arguing if the forum was faster.
In the olden days you could quickly open a thread. If it was interesting you could get involved, and if it was rarefied political debate, move on to something else.
But now it just feels like too much of a time commitment to open each thread in turn as it takes so long to load, and also the layout means it is often harder to read anyway.
Just easier to do something else really.
Having realised how much I despise Facebook and how important it is for independents to survive, I feel awful about not subscribing. But the most important feature to me is the Topics what I've posted on page, and until that is fixed I've witheld my sub.
Hopefully it will get sorted then I can start paying again
It's certainly the forum that brings me here. I also look at the classifieds about once a week. Only occasionally read an article, really need to be on my laptop for that and I find that I am using it the laptop less as the phone is more convenient.
I must be unusual.. I had a few technical problems posting pictures a couple of months ago but the site now works flawlessly for me, it doesn’t appear to be particularly slow but then it’s the only forum I use! I view on iPhone and iPad and make sure the latest updates are installed. I like the reviews and articles but also purchase the print magazine - I don’t know how such a small team produces such quantity and quality. - Keep it up STW!
But the most important feature to me is the Topics what I've posted on page, and until that is fixed I've witheld my sub.
Hopefully it will get sorted then I can start paying again
AFAIK it IS working again, so get yer hand in yer pocket 😉
top right icon, profile, forums, replies created. works for me anyway 🤷♂️
Just came to the site, opened this thread and now my MacBook sounds like a jet fighter at takeoff. WOn't bother to read the posts above or look at others on forum.
I see a lot of variations on 'People don't feel they can share an opinion here' which has left me scratching my head. The level of disagreement here isn't that much different to interactions I have with my real life friends. People don't expect to be able to just state any opinion they want and not have it challenged if others disagree with it. What do get togethers look like for the people who are afraid to share opinions? Does everyone just say anything that comes into their head and everyone else nods quietly and wait for their turn to state their opinion?
I've had disagreements with all my friends and arguments with most of them. Some I've fallen out with and in one or two cases that's led to us not being friends anymore but the vast majority of times you make up and things go back to normal. Back to normal but with a better understanding of each others boundaries and personalities.
One thing on here that does wind me up though is the sly sideways digs. Criticisms that start with, 'Some people on here...' can be very passive aggressive. @stumpyjon posted one of these further up but there have been numerous other examples just on this page.
Because a couple of the very people everyone is pissed off with joined the thread (and before anyone asks I'm not looking at binners or tj who whilst both can be a little verbose at times do manage to add some interests with their posts).
I really don't understand people who post stuff passive aggressively. If someone has annoyed you enough that you feel the need to comment then just name them.
In this case I'm guessing it was directed at me but I can't be 100% sure. Even if it's not directed at me I really don't think it's cool.
If someone on here says something I think is wrong I'll say why I think it's wrong. If they say something offensive I'll say so and explain why I think it's offensive. I don't know, maybe people would like me more if I started all my criticisms with, 'Some people here seem to think..' but then I really don't think it's healthy to be indirect when you're trying to point out someone else's shortcomings.
Things don't get resolved and it just leads to bad blood in the future.
