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Massa is almost certainly right - it came out last year too that Merc were giving their drivers more full power running than their customer teams. I wouldn't be surprised if Merc get the latest engine maps/software ahead of the other teams too.
Obviously it's not all down to the engines - the Merc chassis is clearly excellent but F1 is all about small margins (well, usually - Merc's gap to the rest is anything but small...).
I think Williams run their own Hybrid system, they also run different fuel.
Renault really have cocked-up though. They've had a long time to close the gap. They need to be using some of their development tokens pretty sharpish or Merc will have this season wound up by Hungary.
No, that was in the past. The hybrid system is part of the Merc PU.
[quote=Trimix ]Remember how far ahead Button was in the Brawn - then halfway through the season everyone caught up.
The other Merc engine cars could improve.
Brawn had no development budget.
[quote=back2basics ]i do wonder if they are "doing a mclaren" and whoever gets to the first corner first cannot be overtaken in the race (or perhaps its first pitstop) to prevent crashes/DNFs - until the championship is over....
Did you watch last year?
as for McL Honda, even running as others have said on this forum in "de-tuned" mode - allegedly, although i dont believe it, they couldnt get 2 cars to the grid.
They got one car to the finish, which is as many as Red Bull managed, and more than Lotus - teams which have had an extra year of development on their PUs. I presume your lack of belief in the Honda running detuned is based on the same level of knowledge you're showing about everything else.
Good point about Brawn and his lack of budget.
I wonder if the others can come up with some aero developments to close the gap ?
back2basics - Memberas for McL Honda, even running as others have said on this forum in "de-tuned" mode - allegedly, although i dont believe it, they couldnt get 2 cars to the grid.
2 more races for Ron i think too....
Let me educate you a little bit
Ron Dennis now owns 75% of the business he is not about fire himself...
A Honda engineer has confirmed before the race that they had mapped the engine to run at 63.5% for reliability. After the race Arai said the specific issues they are having is air intake temperatures in the ICE and severe harvesting issues with the MGU-K.
[quote=fr0sty125 ]A Honda engineer has confirmed before the race that they had mapped the engine to run at 63.5% for reliability.
Have you got a sauce for that? If so, then it's just possible that the McHonda could be awesome when (if?) they fix those problems and can turn it up - I saw something suggesting the lap time difference to Mercedes was equivalent to 240bhp, which if that is true they could have in hand.
Oh, and right on cue:
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/194721.html
"When we were winning, and we were never winning to the advantage that they have, I remember that double diffusers were banned, exhausts were moved, flexible bodywork was prohibited, engine mapping mid-season was changed …
Read more at http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/194721.html#F3LzVwgmx1ToI3MA.99
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-changed-rules-to-slow-red-bull-horner/
And asked if he feels Red Bull has been treated unfairly in other ways, he added: "Let's put it this way -- some of the decisions we have seen this year I think you could say were quite harsh."
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/162083/1/red-bull-flexible-front-wings-fuss-a-compliment.html
"As always there is never a silver bullet. The performance of any car comes down to how design philosophy and a combination of components work as opposed to any one particular component."There are stringent tests. I am happy that our car complies with all the regulations and take it as a compliment to our engineers when a fuss like this is sometimes made by rival teams," he added.
Whine, whine, whine...
Cry moar Red Bull.
Just because you can no longer win by 'flexibly' interpreting (SWIDT) the front wing rules they now have sand in their vaginas.
Every time I see Christian Horner and Helmut Weirdo's sad little faces it cheers me up no end.
There was a lot more to their speed than flexy wings, mind...
aracer - MemberHave you got a sauce for that? If so, then it's just possible that the McHonda could be awesome when (if?) they fix those problems and can turn it up - I saw something suggesting the lap time difference to Mercedes was equivalent to 240bhp, which if that is true they could have in hand.
Oh, and right on cue:
http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/motorsport/story/194721.html
Sorry it was 63%
It was a Fox Sports Asia interview by Alex Yoong of a Honda engineer pre race apparently he said.
decided to run at approximately 63% engine mapping to ensure they finish this race, but will tune it up and down in the race to further test some key components of the engines + Mclaren parts
The question though is what percentage would be normal for a race rather than qualifying for example - 80%, 90%, ?
Every time I see Christian Horner and Helmut Weirdo's sad little faces it cheers me up no end.
Yeah, it'd be shit if there was another team capable of winning
but will tune it up and down in the race to further test some key components of the engines + Mclaren parts
Unless the drivers can do this from the steering wheel they can't do this. Telemetry is 1 way, no adjustments can be sent back to the car.
The driver can do this from the car (to some extent) with different engine modes.
nemesis - Member
The question though is what percentage would be normal for a race rather than qualifying for example - 80%, 90%, ?
You are quite right it is impossible to extrapolate that figure all we can say is that it is massively detuned.
I think Arai also said over the weekend that on the dyno the results matched the Merc PU.
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I'd have a small, not too large mind!, bet that a McLaren will be on the podium before the season is out.
Renault cars will be mid-points all season, and Ferrari may pick up a win if Lewis and Nico collide.
Gobsmacking though that people think 'brand new back/brand new engine+limited testing and Mclarens chassis from 2014 - like everyone was going to be expecting podiums from the off for McLaren?
severe harvesting issues with the MGU-K.
Honda should get one of these 😉
[img] 
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I suppose the question is how much merc managed to improve their engine between the start of last year and this year as it was generally fairly reliable from the off - nothing like Honda - so it is possible.
And the chassis ditto.
Unlikely though, I agree but similarly there are plenty of races and if they can chip away at the problems podiums aren't a crazy prospect.
I think the very complex [s]engines[/s] powertrain and the very restricted testing is a bad combination.
The distribution of money could be done a lot better as well, if they want to increase competition.
Lewis looked genuinely shocked when he saw Arni walk out onto the podium, then came out with "I thought you where taller" (how to win friends and influence people). 😛
More toys leaving the pram
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/16/red-bull-could-contemplate-f1-exit?
^ lost any shred of support or respect I'd ever have for them.
They ruled the roost for 4yrs. They had a good run last year too and as soon as they aren't dominant they threaten to leave to make sure its tilted towards them?
Don't all F1 teams claim that? 🙂
Horner and Bernie are thick as thieves. They'll be orchestrating this together to try and get the FIA to change the rules. I can't see Merc or Ferrari (now they seem to be back on track) bending over and letting RB get away with this.
Horner, whose team won four drivers’ and four constructors’ championships between 2010 and 2013
Yes its awful when a team dominate.... though apparently only when its not your team.
To be fair to RB, all of McL, Williams and Ferrari have had at least one period of dominance and when it was them they fought any attempts to level the field and also complained when other teams dominated. It's just part of the game IMO.
Red Bull gives you WHINGE
APPLAUDS 😆
They want everybody to have the same power output, well they should move to a different Formula. If all the engines were essentially the same I think I would stop watching it. Part of the lure for me is that the cars are different, thats what makes it interesting. I was annoyed when we lost a tyre manufacturer. It is about the driver, the PU, the chassis and the aero. If any one of these were common between the teams then it would get increasingly boring.
I am not a fan of one team dominating or rules changing all the time to restrict things. I think there should be some basic rules regarding safety and the size of the engine and thats it. I think it would be much more interesting if the cars looked totally different and different engine manufacturers chose different engine layouts. Imagine if we had the craziness of a fwd car like Nissans LMP1, imagine if the likes of the Tyrrell 6 wheeler and the Brabham fan car were still about.
[quote=I_Ache ]imagine if the likes of the Tyrrell 6 wheeler and the Brabham fan car were still about.
The Brabham sucked
To be fair to RB, all of McL, Williams and Ferrari have had at least one period of dominance and when it was them they fought any attempts to level the field and also complained when other teams dominated. It's just part of the game IMO.
Agree but to say you'll review and potentially look to leave after years of enjoying dominance and success after just one race to try and get your own way using blackmail?
Redbull always left a badtaste in my mouth.
Ferrari too then, presumably...
McL and Williams don't really have the leaving F1 option. Though McL's current corporate direction could theoretically change that but I don't see that happening for a long time.
If any one of these were common between the teams then it would get increasingly boring.
I disagree this year is going to be pretty tedious for the reasons you like
Its also a joke of a sport as all you ever know is who has the best car and who the best driver in that team is.
Who is best - Vettel? Alonso? Hamilton we dont know as the one of them in the fastest car wins.
Who is best - Vettel? Alonso? Hamilton
I'll let you know at the end of this season.
lets not forget a green rookie beat a 2-time world champion at the top of his game and considered the most complete driver.
Lewis has had his wilderness years but that raw misfiring title has matured. Most drivers (IMO) have a short talent window. Hes got a huge amount of still raw talent.
Vettels good- never thought he wasn't and hence why before he even won a title he was called mini-Schumacher. A title he said put too much pressure on him!
imagine if the likes of the Tyrrell 6 wheeler and the Brabham fan car were still about.
But in those days nearly all the cars ran the same engine. The Ferrari had a Ferrari engine, virtually everyone else ran a Ford DFV.
But the rule book was a lot slimmer. imagine if the likes of the Tyrrell 6 wheeler and the Brabham fan car were still about. Nearly all the artistry and ingenuity has been literally ruled out.
I think the fuel should be reduced, but the maximum flow (and so power) can be increased. But at a cost.
At the end of a race when the tanks near empty and the power wound right back, even Marussia could coem galloping to the front.
Sod that. Increase fuel, bring back mid-race refuelling, engines all turned up to 100% and lets see some proper demonstrations of what the cars can do, none of this "nursing cars round" to protect tyres/fuel loads.
Trying to reduce cost and improve the green credentials in F1 by tackling things like fuel use is a ridiculous exercise IMO!
Some of the cars were not filling their tanks completely last year at some races so they've already got to a point where fuel isn't limiting them at least some of the time. The new rules are driving innovation in car design which IMO is what F1 should be doing.
Nursing cars around has always been part of F1 and almost certainly always will be.
Trying to reduce cost and improve the green credentials in F1 by tackling things like fuel use is a ridiculous exercise IMO!
Hardly they are prototyping and demonstrating some of the most advanced energy efficiency technologies which will have a direct application in road cars.
The Brabham sucked
I got it aracer.
Bring back re-fuelling, but at a horribly slow rate and make the fuel tank a mandatory size small enough that you can make it without re-fuelling but only if you back off to conserve fuel.
And adjust the fuelling rate of there's a safety car so that the safety car advantage of fuel saving is negated by a faster re-fuel rate.
Nothing better than a fast car/driver trying to catch a slower one late in the race.
I also laughed at the sucking Brabham 🙂
dull race, made cringeworthy at the end by the "Bantz" with Arnie.
I'm all for exploiting the rules to the max, that's what it's about, and Merc have done an amazing job, but they all forget that it's supposed to be entertainment at their peril. Nascar will and does clip the wings (no red bull pun intended) of any team that finds a loophole or starts to pull away from the rest. The teams know it, the fans know it, and it's still wildly popular.
13 cars on the grid, some of them going around very slowly indeed isn't F1, and should be a cause for concern for all invloved.
Oh, forgot:
I was also going to say, If a respected motor sport engine manufacturers like Honda and Renault are that far of the pace because the engines and associated power trains are so vastly complex, then you've written the rules wrong IMO
It's rather silly judging off one race - like Bernie and Di Montezemolo last year right before one of the best races for ages.